Claudia von Boeselager: [00:00:11] I'm very excited to dig into so many interesting topics, but I would love to start with a question that for many is, perhaps, basic, but on serving a few friends, realized that everyone has a different definition of what exactly sustainability is. Can you explain that for us?

Marie Cudennec: Yeah, well, that's obviously a topic that's very close to my heart, and something I think about a lot. Because I think a lot of people often misconstrue sustainability with meaning something to do with the environment, something about, you know, protecting the planet. And it absolutely, you know, is that. I mean, at its core, I think sustainability is about the long-term longevity of the human race on this planet.

But with that, you know, we are not distinct from the environment that we live in. So I think, for me, sustainability is very much about not just environmental impacts, but also social impacts. So how we treat the planet, but how we treat people, and it really has a multifaceted side, you know, sides to it. And I think the UN does a very good job of delineating that through its sustainable development goals. And you can see through those that, you know, there are 17 of them. Some of them are very environmental focus, but actually a lot of them are people focused, equality focused, gender focused. So it's so much more encompassing than just, you know, eco-responsibility.

Claudia von Boeselager: Which is fantastic that you explained that, thank you. Because I think so many people think, oh, you know, if I recycle I'm being sustainable, but as you said yourself, there's, it's much more, and we'll dig into that shortly because Goldfinger is such a great example of this.

You've had such an interesting and diverse upbringing across many different cities.
Can you talk a little bit about your childhood, and living in different places, and how this shaped you to where you are today?

Marie Cudennec: Yeah. So, yeah, when a lot of people ask me, where are you from? I go: "Ooh, okay, how long do you have? Do you want the short version? Or do you want the long version?" Exactly. We share that. So anytime someone has a slightly complicated story, I'm like: "Oh, I want to hear more."

So I'm half-French, half-Chinese. I have a French father, and a Malaysian-Chinese mother, and I was born in Singapore. But we moved back to Paris very early on. And so I had a very French upbringing, in terms of, you know, culturally, and, but we moved around a lot from my father's job and he was working in the, sort of, cosmetics, luxury goods industry.

And so, wherever a job came, we went, and we then ended up in Jakarta, and in Hong Kong, and Miami, and then back in Hong Kong, and that was all before the age of 18. So, a lot of moving around, but a lot of fun and it gave me such an appreciation for multiculturalism just being the norm. That was just how I grew up and speaking as many languages as possible was just fun.

It was never a chore. And I love the ability to be able to communicate with so much of the world. And, as you can probably deduce, out of all those countries, I speak French and English fluently, and from my time in Miami, I also I had the joy of picking up Spanish, and my Italian is okay with all of that. And, eventually, I did actually finally learn Chinese Mandarin, so.

A lot of people say, you can speak with everybody in the world almost, and like almost not quite, but-

Claudia von Boeselager: You cover most of the planet. Exactly. You're doing quite well.

And interesting you learned Mandarin and Cantonese, right? Because of Hong Kong.

Marie Cudennec: That's right. Exactly. You picked up on that very accurately, especially 'cause my mother is Cantonese Chinese, so she speaks Cantonese, and I don't. So she tried speaking, so it's a, quite a funny story, I don't actually speak Chinese through my mother. She tried speaking Cantonese to me when I was little, but apparently I would always block my ears and scream for dear life, and she would go: "Okay, I'm going to stop then." I didn't like it for some reason.

And I obviously, I don't remember this. So she just decided to focus on English and French for now, and then she would re-introduce it. But she never did, and it can get tricky. I was in a French school and, in the end, I was very much in a sort of Francophone environment and it was only at about age 16 or so that I decided, you know, I'm half-Chinese.

I really should learn one of the Chineses anyway,. And I chose Mandarin because it was more useful.

Claudia von Boeselager: Many more people speak it, yeah. Apparently, and I don't want to insult anybody, apparently it's slightly easier because you only have five different tones instead of the seven of Cantonese, right?

Marie Cudennec: That's right, yeah. Actually only four, yes. And again, not to offend anybody, including my own ancestors, but Mandarin is also more beautiful to the ear. The sound of Cantonese is quite harsh on the ear. It's full of, you know, amazing, it's a very rich language, Cantonese, you know, and it's not a dialect, they do say that. But it's not the prettiest of languages.

Whereas Mandarin is actually very mellifluous. It's a very, very beautiful language.

Claudia von Boeselager: Well, well done for learning all those languages. You have my admiration. I'm working on my few as well, but I have a philosophy that the more languages you speak, the words you speak each one, because you start integrating good words from different languages into another one.

Marie Cudennec: That's so true, exactly.

Claudia von Boeselager: This would be a good word in English.
So speaking of your mother, I hear there is a very good crayon story that your mother loves. Can you explain that please?

Marie Cudennec: Oh, this is sort of an embarrassing story, but it is quite funny. And she does tell it a lot. And so, if she was here, she'd be telling us, so.

Apparently when I was two or two and a half, you know, so very little, at nursery in Paris, I would be seen, observed, with a quite a lot of humor because, apparently I did it in quite a nice way, but at the same time, it was very clear what I was doing, and I would apparently just gather all the crayons that were around and distribute them to all the children, giving each of them one, and then I would keep all the rest for myself. And apparently my mom and the teacher were sort of laughing about, I wonder what she'll be in the future, probably some sort of business woman, or-

Claudia von Boeselager: Delegating.

Marie Cudennec: My Mum always jokes she, sort of, saw the mini CEO in me, kind of, delegating from quite an early age.

Claudia von Boeselager: So clearly this is very intrinsic to you. You are doing what you do best.
Was there a particular moment in your life that inspired your passion for sustainability?

Marie Cudennec: Yes, definitely. Well, there were many critical moments, but I think one of the ones that really always marks me as certainly the beginning of a journey, because it is a journey. And you go deeper and deeper into it. And I think it really is a lifelong journey as you learn about it, because it's not part of our curriculum. It's not part of schooling at the moment. I hope it will be one day.

But for me, it was very much this moment, living in Hong Kong, which as you all know, is a very polluted city, and where the problem of waste is so in your face. And I remember this moment being, yeah, just about eight or so, very, very young, and being on a boat and crossing the harbor, and noticing there was a fridge floating in the ocean. And the boat actually had to sort of maneuver to avoid the fridge, and actually all this onslaught of, sort of, household appliances that have been thrown into the ocean. And it was such a, you can just imagine, you know, the image of this, this fridge bobbing up and down, and quite how a man-made problem this was. It was so obvious to me, even as that eight-year-old, we are trashing our oceans, we are destroying our planet, and it was so clearly a man-made problem.

I thought, well, there must be a solution that we can come up with as well. And that really, sort of, stuck with me. Obviously I was eight, so I didn't go and solve it just then. But it very much stayed with me.

Claudia von Boeselager: It planted a seed in your mind, I guess.

Marie Cudennec: Yes, exactly. Exactly.

Claudia von Boeselager: Yeah. And so that's where it started. And you mentioned before in previous contact that, in Beijing as well, there was a real obvious occurrence of pollution, which also encouraged sustainability, right?

Marie Cudennec: Yeah, definitely. I think that one was, even more, I think, going back to that more holistic definition of sustainability, it really showed me the dangers of economic progress sometimes as the singular pursuit of, yeah, economic progress can be so destructive, not just for the environment, but for communities.
And so this story takes us back to pre-Olympic Beijing, where I decided to go and study for my Mandarin, coming back to that. Amazing city to be in, pre-Olympics. It was really the wild, wild East, as I used to call it. And it was just-

Claudia von Boeselager: And it was just before the Olympics, or was it a year or something?

Marie Cudennec: Right before. Yeah, it was about a year, just a year. It was two thousand, September, 2007. So-

Claudia von Boeselager: Okay, so they were preparing for the Olympics.

Marie Cudennec: They were preparing.

Claudia von Boeselager: Yeah.

Marie Cudennec: And, so we arrived in a city that was really still buzzing with the energy of, of so many dichotomies of, you know, we're in a communist regime, but there was so much art around, and so much, you know ,parties, and music and, you know, youth, kind of, really this sort of burgeoning culture. And it was an incredible, incredible time to be there. And all these, you know, beautiful markets and the hutongs, and the street vendors, and fruit and vegetables.

And that's really how I learned my Chinese is actually going out to-

Claudia von Boeselager: On the streets.

Marie Cudennec: Be on the streets, because often with international students who are also learning Mandarin, they often all speak English, and it can be very hard to actually speak Mandarin all the time, which is crazy. And so really made it a point to try to make some local friends and speak to the taxi drivers and the locals as much as possible.

And, you know, these very rundown little neighborhoods, even in the center, the financial center, but it was just unbelievable how within, you know, those first six months it felt like, you know, where there was talk of the Olympics, but nothing was really happening.

But from that, sort of, January, February of 2008, you know, really in the ramp up, everything changed. And it was gradual, but it was so fast. And within six months, the city was unrecognizable. Those areas that we'd come to love. So many of those little street vendors, all had been pushed out, you know, picked up and buses, literally, and just pushed out to the countryside. And these beautiful old buildings were just being torn down and replaced with these American-style malls.

And it just left me feeling so sad. Like, how can there be so little respect for this rich cultural heritage and, and the local communities as well. And I think that's what really hit home, this, you know, I had, kind of, come across this notion of the triple bottom line at university that sounded like this theoretical thing, you know. That it's not just economic benefit that we should be looking for, but also, alongside that, yes, that's really important, but what about the social value, and what about the environmental value, and that the more any business or any organization can pursue those three simultaneously, the better everyone will be for it.

Claudia von Boeselager: That's such a perfect example, also, so thank you for sharing that.
Marie, you were awarded a scholarship to attend Harvard Business School's course for nonprofit leaders. How did that come to be? And how did the course for nonprofit leaders shape what you are doing today?

Marie Cudennec: That's a great question. That was a really a massive turning point for me in, in my life in many ways, which I'll, I'll come to in a minute. And also how it came to be is an absolutely wonderful story.

It was actually through one of our clients, Inhabit Hotels, who are an amazing sustainability and wellness-focused client. In fact, you should speak to their founder, she's amazing.

Claudia von Boeselager: Thank you, I'd love to.

Marie Cudennec: And she just happened to mention that this was coming up, she was a Harvard MBA grad herself, and knew someone who, you know, managed the admissions program for this very unique program, which I had never even heard of, probably because it would have been completely unaffordable. And little did I know that they offer two scholarships to it every year.

So every, kind of, major city that has Harvard business alumni, offered two scholarships to this course, for, sort of, leaders of nonprofits. And so she referred me, I went through the interview process and off I went. And it was the most incredible experience, honestly, you know what they say about Harvard and all that, but it's the most extraordinary level of individuals who have such passion for the subject. The professors are so sharp, and so funny and entertaining, and you can really feel like there's this, the Harvard method of how they, how they convey, you know, the case study method. You're always learning through real life examples of organizations, you're never learning theory.

And it was so intense. Seven days, 7:00 AM to 9:00 PM, pretty much, just nonstop. But wow, it was just incredible, and so relevant as well, too. And we were all different sizes. There was 162 of us from all over the world. So it was a big group. And I think, I mean, gosh, where to start. One of the things that I've applied, so, and I don't want to get too nerdy or business management-y on anybody-

Claudia von Boeselager: Oh, I love talking business, so knock yourself out, whatever you feel like saying.

Marie Cudennec: So one of them was this concept of operational transparency about how, when you show your customer the backstage, so for example, in a restaurant, the classic example, the open kitchen. People love seeing how things are made.

People love seeing the background. And we often keep that hidden. And the more you can build that rapport between the end user and the manu-, the maker, or the back of house staff, the better the relationship, the more there's an appreciation for both sides. And it creates this very unique dialogue in this service culture that is really, really good for the business.

And that was something that really always spoke to me that bringing, because the way our shop and our setup underneath the Trellick Tower is our showroom and restaurant is on the ground floor, so very visible. But all the really amazing stuff is in the basement, is downstairs, completely invisible to everybody. And it's just the way the space is set up.

And so most people, you know, who come into that Sicilian restaurant every day, there's about 100, 150 people, you know, pre-COVID, they have no idea that there's this amazing, you know, workshop downstairs, making beautiful furniture for hotels, and homes, and offices. I always say I would love to create a kind of fishbowl effect, like the glass-

Claudia von Boeselager: Yeah, or glass floors, panels.

Marie Cudennec: If the floor was glass.

Claudia von Boeselager: Exactly, post-COVID.

Marie Cudennec: Yeah, maybe..

Claudia von Boeselager: Oh, I think everybody would love that.

Marie Cudennec: And so, you know, our, sort of, very small version of doing that was to bring up some making into the showroom, you know what, when we have some special events. And it's always tricky, because the thing is actually sometimes makers don't like to be watched. So it's, it's one of those things that the theory is there, and I know it's a good thing and it's compelling, but then in practical terms, it can be quite hard to bring to life. And so one way of doing it is also just bringing people downstairs, even though it's...

And the other thing which I always come back to is Harvard's great at, sort of, frameworks and things. There's this really wonderful Venn diagram that I always, sort of, refer back to, which is, you know, when you're analyzing, whether you should go for a new program, or launch a new product, or service is, you know, there's this three interlocking circles. One is the mission vision, you know, does it actually fit with your mission and vision? The second is that, you know, do you have the resource? Do you have the capacity? So is the team there, is the tooling there, you know. And then the final bit is support, which relates to finances to the funds. Do you have the funds to make this happen?

And obviously if you, so when the three circles intersect in the middle, they used to call that the "just do it" zone. Like, you go for it.

Other ones, it was, you know, when you have mission and you have capacity, but you don't have the funding. That's like, you know, the field of dreams. It's possible, but you're going to still need to get the funding. And then, the downstairs bit which is, you've got the capacity and you've got the funding, but it's not mission-aligned. That's the total nightmare because you shouldn't ever do that, but it's-

Claudia von Boeselager: Exactly..

Marie Cudennec: And it does, it can happen, you know? And so anyway, it's very, it's a very useful framework to always come back to and just, yeah, reflect on. And I use it with my team a lot of the time, and they refer to it a lot as well. And it's, you know, it's, sort of, been seen in lots of other things.
And one final thing, I know, I said I would only do two, but-

Claudia von Boeselager: No, no problem.

Marie Cudennec: Which I loved because it was, sort of, came through the whole way, is this concept of "question zero". Question zero: What are you trying to achieve? They kept on going, you know, you've got to remember, you know, it's so easy with any business, to forget what you are actually here to do. And just to come back to question zero. So-

Claudia von Boeselager: Oh, I love that. I'm going to write that down for myself as well. I think, yeah, it's especially, I think, you know, in entrepreneurship and those tricky times or whatever, and it's like, why did I decide to do this in the first place? And then, you know, having that end result, and the question zero, as you call it, I really like that.

So some rapid fire questions for you, Marie, before we jump into all the amazing things around Goldfinger. What are some daily or weekly routines and practices that you have that help you perform at such a high level?

Marie Cudennec: Ah, so this is, I love this topic because this is really my passion of life, really. And all these wellness practices.

And so I, for me, it really starts with good nutrition. I'm absolutely a huge believer that, you know, what you eat is the fuel that you put in your body that powers you either to have huge amounts of energy, and be happy, and it affects your mood. It affects, it affects everything.

So I love cooking. I love healthy food, and I actually used to write a blog about healthy recipes.

Claudia von Boeselager: Oh really, I didn't know that. What are your go-to dishes?

Marie Cudennec: What are my go-to dishes? Oh, that's a good one. When I'm really in a hurry, my, kind of, absolute go-to is fried eggs with a bit of homemade kimchi. I just-

Claudia von Boeselager: Oh wow.

Marie Cudennec: And a green salad. That is just, just easy, easy, when there's really just no time.

Where to even start. I do love a good steak, sometimes, with a, with a green salad. And I'm a big believer in, kind of, supporting sustainable, you know, regenerative agriculture. And all that amazing, you know, movement around eating well-raised meat and, and not, you know, not to too much of it, but nutritionally, you know, there's so many great benefits.

Claudia von Boeselager: Benefits, yeah. Grass-fed meat, yeah.

Marie Cudennec: Yes, exactly. And, and I, you know, I'm, I have my Asian side as well, so I always love a, I'm always making broth on the side. So, sort of, boiling-

Claudia von Boeselager: Which is phenomenal.

Marie Cudennec: Yeah. And, you know, Vietnamese pho noodle soup.

Claudia von Boeselager: Oh, I love it. Yeah.

Marie Cudennec: Or, you know, all those amazing kind of very nourishing broths, especially in winter. I love that.

And a curry, my mum is Malaysian as well. So that's probably my.

Claudia von Boeselager: Oh wow, so you have all nations and all the recipes done.

Marie Cudennec: Yeah.

Claudia von Boeselager: Well done. Oh, it sounds delicious.

Marie Cudennec: And then I'd say the, the other, you know, big time, is meditation and yoga, which are really two separate things, but I, you know, I often practice them together and I think it's super important to, that ability to just get on the mat first thing in the morning, and-

Claudia von Boeselager: So you do that first thing, is it? Like, what does that maybe you can walk our listeners through for inspiration, how does your yoga, meditation practice look like it? Is it every morning?

Marie Cudennec: Every morning, with my husband. It's a really lovely practice that we do together. And we start with sun salutations. It's a very short practice to make it, 'cause it can be very tempting to say, we'll do an hour every day, but then because it's so... it will slip.

And so rather than saying that, we just say we'll do nine sun salutations every day. Which we do. And sometimes we do a bit more. And then we will meditate back to back for about 10 minutes, which is really, it's such a lovely practice, 'cause you,, sort of start breathing together, as well, synchronizing your breathing.

Claudia von Boeselager: [00:19:43] Wow. What type of meditation do you do? Any specific one, or?

Marie Cudennec: I mean, we have a lot of different yoga teachers and, but nothing particular, you know, in terms of just really, just contemplative breathing, and there's a yoga teacher, we absolutely adore called Janet Stone. And in London, I practice a lot with the Jivamukti studio as well, which is very near Goldfinger.

So that's my sort of sacred space. So when I'm in London and when there isn't COVID, my yoga practice is then followed by an evening class, a kind of more intense Asana practice, not anymore these days, but hopefully we're back soon again.

Claudia von Boeselager: Hopefully again soon. Exactly.

Marie Cudennec: Yeah, exactly. And so, and so that whole ritual, you know, it's about, kind of, 20 minutes, half an hour, depending on the day. So it's, you know, it's totally achievable, and you just feel so much better for it.

Claudia von Boeselager: It sets you up to win the day. Right? So once you've done that, you've achieved so much, you feel so great. You can conquer the world then, right?

Marie Cudennec: Exactly.

Claudia von Boeselager: Yeah.

Marie Cudennec: And I've caught myself going, I don't have time to meditate. And I don't know who it was, it's a lovely quote, but I always remember it. And they say, if you're too busy to meditate, then you need to meditate double what you would normally-

Claudia von Boeselager: Exactly. I know that quote. And I actually was thinking it to myself the other day, because I also do daily meditation and it's such a game changer, especially, you know, if there's overwhelm or the potential for anxiety, it just, it takes away all that noise, and you're able to think so much clearer. And then obviously the creativity and, you know, it's really incredible that with neuroscience now, they're, you know, doing brain scans during meditation, and actually it's showing that the corpus callosum, which is in the, the connector between the left and right brain, over time actually gets thicker the longer you meditate, and have a regular meditation practice. Which means more intuition, which is always a good thing, more creativity, calmness. So many effects. I mean, I wish that they would teach meditation at school.

Marie Cudennec: To kids, I know.

Claudia von Boeselager: I think it would be a big environment, but maybe one day.

Marie Cudennec: One day, I think it's, it is happening in some schools. I have heard of that already, which I just think is brilliant. I know, it should just be part of the curriculum. And I, another one I heard as well is just, you know, think of meditation as just brushing your teeth. Like, would you ever go, I don't have time to brush my teeth. You just brush your teeth. You know, it's fundamental to your health. And for some reason we have this weird relationship where we go: "Oh, I know it's good for me, but I don't need to do it." No, no, no, you do. You really do.

Claudia von Boeselager: Exactly. Exactly. All the more.

Marie Cudennec: Yeah, exactly. So that's a big part. And then I think for the final part is, is being in nature. For me, that's a huge, I'm a huge fan of the, what the Japanese call shinrin yoku, you know, forest bathing, which is just a fancy name for being near trees. And, you know, it's a simple pleasure, but when you live in an urban environment, you really have to go and deliberately seek it out. And we're lucky that London is so green, and there are so many parks, but, yeah, I have to say, seek it out however you can.

And, you know, I love swimming as well. I love swimming in the Hampstead ponds, so going into, but you know, natural, tend to not like the chlorine in pools. So,, so yes, all that sort of, you know, cold water, it's amazing how it just makes you feel so alive.

Claudia von Boeselager: Cold therapy.

Marie Cudennec: Yeah.

Claudia von Boeselager: My deepest respects. I have a friend who swims every day in the Irish Sea, which I haven't gotten there quite yet. If I manage a few seconds of a cold shower, I'm already proud of myself. So I'm on the path to ice baths, but I think that's going to take a little while, but it's-

Marie Cudennec: I find the cold shower thing, even, I don't know what it is, but I find that really difficult. So, you know, kudos to you for doing that. I'm a bit of a fair weather one. If it's raining or even a bit cold outside, I won't go in. But if it's sunny, even if it's cold, if it's sunny, I'm going in. you know, it doesn't really matter what the weather is.

Claudia von Boeselager: You follow the sun. I love it.

Marie Cudennec: Yeah, I follow the sun. Exactly. I always say, I think I'm solar powered.

I, exactly. Well, I definitely think I have that SAD thing. The seasonal affective disorder. If the sun is shining, I can wake up and I have more energy without even actually noticing if the sun is out or not. So I must buy at one stage, one of those SAD lamps.

Claudia von Boeselager: I think the name is so funny as well.

Marie Cudennec: I know, isn't it? I know it's so appropriate.

Claudia von Boeselager: I love it. Marie, when you feel overwhelmed, or unfocused, or have lost your focus temporarily, what do you do?

Marie Cudennec: Well, for the most part, I actually just walk away from the computer, is the number one thing. And yes, overwhelm always happens at the computer pretty much.

Claudia von Boeselager: True.

Marie Cudennec: You know, at the moment, this is our, the way we interact, and there are moments where, you know, zoom after zoom after zoom, the feeling of overwhelm is palpable. You know, I'm, I'm someone who is quite calm and quite steady generally, but it'll take anyone down. I mean, it is exhausting. And so, yeah, walk away, look away from your screen as well, and I need to do that more, is that looking out. And I'm really lucky. I look out onto beautiful trees and nature, right now.

And it's amazing what that does actually immediately to how you feel. Another, I mean, this is a simple thing, but just the act of making tea. And I'm a huge fan of matcha, both my husband and I, actually, we have a real sort of ritual. And it's very, very soothing, the act of whisking the matcha with the bamboo whisk
 and there's so much ritual around it as well. And it is actually the Zen monk's drink before meditation. And so I tend to have one in the afternoon, which tends to be more when I, I tend not to drink caffeine at all, so, and I never have caffeine in the morning. So I just, yeah, I've got in the habit of doing it in the afternoons.

And that is for me, just, it's such a simple thing, but it's always there, and it always calms me down. That's really, it's my little matcha ritual is very calming.

Claudia von Boeselager: So as a tea expert, what's the perfect way to prepare matcha? What do you recommend people-

Marie Cudennec: Ideally, you have a matcha bowl, which is a very beautiful ceramic bowl.

And, you know, you can get them in Japanese shops. And I dream of going to Japan one day and being able to choose your own.

Claudia von Boeselager: Do you have a favorite brand?

Marie Cudennec: Of bowls?

Claudia von Boeselager: Yeah.

Marie Cudennec: To be honest, there are no real brands that are doing them. It's all really traditional Japanese ones. I got ours from a really cool kind of online marketplace for foodies called Sous Chef, I don't know if you've come across it.

Claudia von Boeselager: Sous Chef, I've heard of it. I'll link it in the show notes.

Marie Cudennec: Yeah, definitely. They're very authentic, all the things that they do. So I think it's the closest thing other than going to a Japanese store, perhaps.
So that bit is ideal, but not essential. The bamboo whisk is absolutely essential, and it is amazing because matcha's obviously caught on to become this, sort of, popular thing that normal coffee shops have.

And a lot of them don't have the bamboo whisk, and it drives me mental.

Claudia von Boeselager: What's the beauty or what's the secret of the bamboo whisk?

Marie Cudennec: So, it basically. Yeah. I mean, it's not just, sort of, it's the right way as in, it ends up being all lumpy and clumpy with lots of matcha .And matcha's very strong, so you don't want a big clump of match at the bottom of your, so basically it's this beautiful whisk that just allows you to, you do it in a sort of a T shape or sort of W shape that you can basically, and you just get rid of all the clumps. You're kind of just whisking it sideways. And it has all these little bamboo bristles that basically smooths out all the matcha.

It should be a completely smooth green paste before you either add more water or hot milk, if you're doing the matcha latte thing, so-

Claudia von Boeselager: Amazing. I can see how this is so therapeutic. Yeah.

Marie Cudennec: Yes. It really is. Get rid of the clumps, get rid of the clumps. And it's very fast at the same time, so-

Claudia von Boeselager: And you're creating something as well with it.

Marie Cudennec: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Claudia von Boeselager: Lovely. Marie, do you have a favorite quote or piece of advice that was a real game changer for you?

Marie Cudennec: Gosh, there are so many, which one would I pick? I suppose this is one, that's more, it's very related to my work more than how I live my life, but actually it is very much intrinsic to how I live my life.

A really beautiful quote. It's actually taken from the Austrian philosopher, Ludwig Wittgenstein. It's grounded in, sort of, quite esoteric philosophy, but it's then transliterated from the Italian chef Massimo Bottura, whom I love. And he says ethics and aesthetics are two sides of the same coin. Beauty without good, isn't really that beautiful. And, at the same time, good causes need beauty to carry their message forward.

Claudia von Boeselager: Oh, I love that.

Marie Cudennec: And it's always something that's, it's obviously so anchored at Goldfinger is that, sure, you can have lots of beautiful objects, but if they don't have meaning, or a purpose, or soul, or creating, what's the point? And then on the flip side, doing good things in the world, if they're not beautiful, at the end of the day, people, we are creative souls.

We are sensitive to aesthetics and to beauty and the more potential it has to convey its message to the world and to be able to communicate it.

Claudia von Boeselager: Oh, I love that. So beautiful. Thank you Marie.
I'd love to change gears now and dive into the wonderful world of Goldfinger. But, to start with, how did you come up with the name "Goldfinger"? What's the meaning behind it?

Marie Cudennec: Yes, that's a great question. How we came up with the name is a very interesting story because it's almost too good to be true, but the architects of the building that we are located in the Trellick Tower was called Arnaud Goldfinger. So he was a Hungarian-born architect, who became, after his death, very famous for this very iconic brutalist style. So I don't know if you know the building. Are you-

Claudia von Boeselager: For the listeners? Maybe you can describe it.

Marie Cudennec: Yeah. It's on the westway. If any of you ever take the Heathrow Express, or are driving to Heathrow from almost anywhere in London, you can't miss it.

It's this giant 31-storey, very brutalist concrete block, with this elevator tower that's separate from the building. So it's got a very, very distinct shape with the sort of staircase that connects the elevator tower with the main building. So it, sort of, goes up like that and look it up, Trellick Tower.

So it's very, very iconic and I'm sure some of you will have seen it, and it's very, very love or hate. A lot of people really despise it because it's so big. It's so, sort of, concrete and minimalist, and it's a really no frills building. But there's also this, this huge, sort of, following behind it, all the architects who are into that very rough, concrete, brutalist architecture, you know, hail it as one of the greatest monuments of all time, you know, and certainly in London.

So it's a very funny story. Before he built this tower, he actually used to live in Hampstead. He built a house very similar to that in Hampstead. And, as you can imagine, in the 1960s, you know, Hampstead, there was all the, you know, very, and it still is very beautiful treelined streets, Victorian houses and, and the neighbors were just completely devastated that the, he made this concrete block house, which is a national heritage site now, No. 2, Willow Road, which some of you will know. And his neighbors were really upset about this. And one of these neighbors was actually Ian Fleming, who already had a bit of a thing, you know, in it, for this owner, Goldfinger, they were not the best of friends.

They used to play in the same golf club. They had a lot of similar friends. And so Ian Fleming, the author of the James Bond books, decided to call the baddie in his book "Goldfinger". He thought that was really fitting revenge.

Claudia von Boeselager: That's so funny, I didn't know that.

Marie Cudennec: Yeah. This is all a true story, it was recounted in one of his biographies. And Goldfinger tried to take him to court. In the end, they ended up settling, and the settlement was a signed copy of the book. So really quite incredible, you know, the man with the Midas touch. And there's so much symbolism there in terms of, you know, transforming. So we say, you know, the material we touch, we turn to gold. And it's very much, you know, for us, it's about seeing the potential in what others overlook.

And so both in terms of the materials we work with, as well as, so, you know, we're working with recycled woods, sustainable materials that are being donated, and as well with sort of, overlooked talent, as well. So people who may have not been given a chance in mainstream education, or who didn't fit in to the academic mold, but who are brilliant makers and creatives.

And so we also have a platform for, people to really bring out that potential in these different ways. So the Goldfinger name
is very core to everything we do.

Claudia von Boeselager: Such a beautiful story. I love it. And love to touch on a few topics that you just mentioned, but maybe even starting with your journey to Goldfinger, where did the idea come from and how did it come to be and be, and you touched on using recycled wood in pieces, but maybe you can just walk us through that journey to where you are today.

Marie Cudennec: Yeah. So as I said, sustainability was always very important to me from that fridge incident, let's call it.

Claudia von Boeselager: Thank goodness for the fridge.

Marie Cudennec: I know, right? And then I followed in my father's footsteps, as you do. And I ended up in the luxury goods industry, doing what I thought I wanted to do and, you know, working on the branding and the marketing, and it was all exciting and fun and , I was young, and...

But there was something that was missing for me. And I couldn't quite put my finger on it in my early twenties. I just, I just knew I didn't fit in there, that was for sure. But I was learning and it was a great experience.

But the more I, kind of, got into it, and the more I started to articulate what it was, it's just, there was something, there was a sort of a, a soullessness, or a meaningless, to just selling product for the sake of selling product. Why? Like, just the relentless pursuit of profit, and then what? And also the way of getting to it, you know, we're, we're using all this plastic, using all this single-use material, using all these chemicals. And, especially I was working in the beauty industry when all of this was kind of coming to the light.

And I realized I actually wasn't even able to wear those products anymore. I didn't want to wear that makeup or that... and, you know, from the outside, it can seem like a very glamorous world. But to me, it was just, there was a huge value misalignment. And, but I sort of kept my appreciation and deep love for beautiful things.

And I still do it and about the need for luxury products, and the sort of aspirational effect of a luxury brand is very, very powerful, but there didn't seem to be anybody really doing that in an ethical way. And, my God, the world has changed so much since, and it's so wonderful that we are joined by so many other, you know, ethical luxury companies or, you know-

Claudia von Boeselager: You're one of the pioneers.

Marie Cudennec: High-end products. And yeah, at the beginning, people were like, what are you doing? It doesn't make any sense, why would you do that?

Claudia von Boeselager: Or, like, why?

Marie Cudennec: And profit, you know, non-profit stuff belongs there, and luxury stuff belongs there. And I was like, no, no, that's, that's what I want to do is bring those two worlds together. And the intersection of sustainability and luxury is what excites me. And realizing that you could create beautiful products, and the way you created them was also sustainable. Because there is a model which is: I will make profit at any cost, and then I will reinvest it or I will donate to charity. But what about just making that profit in a sustainable way, all the way along? And yes, it's slower. Yes, it's tougher, of course. But when you crack that, the impact you're having, at a very grassroots level, with the people that you employ, and the materials that you use.

And so that was, you know, the seeds of the business being born and realizing that there was a way, and furniture-making was something my co-founder was really passionate about. And so that was just, you know, a happenstance that it was that. And always loved working with beautiful objects. And, so, we ended up creating the social enterprise in 2013. And that is really how we've ended up where we are today.

Claudia von Boeselager: Excellent. And can you explain the process of what you actually do, and the products, and what goes into it?

Marie Cudennec: Yeah, no, absolutely. So we're a design studio, and we also are a fabrication workshop for bespoke furniture and objects.

So we work with individuals and businesses, alike. In the past, we've tended to work more with businesses, especially restaurants and hotels who share a sustainability ethos of some sort. So one of our first clients was Gail's Bakery, at the very beginning of their-

Claudia von Boeselager: Really?

Marie Cudennec: Massive expansion. Yes. And they really wanted to reinvest, you know, they love the idea of reinvesting into their local communities.

And, you know, at the end of the day, I think, if people can see that they can have a beautiful object, the same that they would get with another supplier, but there's environmental and social benefit in that, it's a no brainer, really.

\We do a lot of bespoke commission. So we basically get approached by individuals or businesses that say, I want a table that looks like this.

Sometimes we work with the architects and interior designers as a collaboration, and we are the fabricator, and other times people come to us for the design, and then we have an in-house designer who will, you know, really hear what the client wants exactly, and we then bring your design dreams to life.

Claudia von Boeselager: Incredible.

Marie Cudennec: And involve the client as much as they want to in the material procurement process, you know, we tell them, right now we have all the cedar that was donated by Harvey Nichols' Christmas windows scheme last year. We have all this teak from Imperial College. We have this amazing library of surplus materials. We try to move away from the concept of waste materials, because nobody wants to have waste materials, right? And so, and the thing is they are not waste. Waste is a man-made concept. That's just a label that we've applied to it in the very linear model of use, dispose, and that's it. Whereas, if you look at nature, waste doesn't exist. It's a cycle. And so this is where the idea of the circular economy comes from. You know, you put something in the ground and it comes back up with something else, you know? Nothing should have one life and just go down the chain. So I like to say that waste is just a resource in the wrong hands.

Claudia von Boeselager: Oh, wow. I love that.

Marie Cudennec: It hasn't found its way to the right hands. There is always a value in something, it's just that, sadly, it's often cheaper to dispose of something than to find a new home for it.

Claudia von Boeselager: I think, as the educational levels also rise, that they realize that there is this opportunity. So, you know, also with the work you're doing. And I guess at the beginning you had to educate some of the retailers to say, you know, if you have a window display, you're not using any more, you know, give us the wood and the pieces as well.

So it's an educational process, right?

Marie Cudennec: It's an educational process. So much of our brand is hugely, yeah, both to, so the supply chain, in terms of getting that sort of amazing material that's there, and they don't know what to do with it. They don't like throwing it away, increasingly, before, you know, perhaps they didn't care, but I mean, now more than ever, you know, there was so many, so much more, awareness. And consumers are asking about these things.

And so we provide quite a turnkey solution to a lot of these boxes, basically that a lot of companies need to check. So yeah, it's an exciting journey. And then likewise on the customer front, there's quite an educational journey there as well, because there's a very interesting false truth that prevails, which is that using reclaimed material means it must be cheaper because the material was free. Or so they think.
And it's actually, it couldn't be further from the truth. And it takes often, some people get it because they've either worked with wood, but with reclaimed wood, often there's a lot of labor involved to get it to a state that it's reusable again, either de-nailing or sanding and yeah, the wood isn't perfect.

So it just needs more love and care. And that's where I like to say, you know, sustainability is luxury. It is more expensive. And when it's done well with the right, you know, the design aesthetic, that's what we're sort of, we're really aiming to be, is to really be that aspirational design brand that is at the core, deeply rooted in a sustainable narrative.

Not just we do that on the side, you know, it's, it's sort of what drives us.

Claudia von Boeselager: Yeah. And I think you really do go the extra mile because you've aligned Goldfinger's success with the five United Nations sustainable development goals for 2030. Can you talk about that?

Marie Cudennec: Yeah. I haven't spoken about our academy so much, which is very much about the human side of what we do and the kind of training side.

I'll start with what we were just talking about, which is very much the materials side and the sustainability side, as people think of it, which is very much the climate action piece, and the responsible consumption and production. So those are the two UN SDGs that really correspond to the more environmental side of it.

So with climate action, we use as much reclaimed material as possible instead of using virgin material. And there's a much, much lower carbon emission, basically, for reusing reclaimed wood. Reusing one ton of wood emits about 38 kilos of CO2 compared to 312 kilos per ton of wood from virgin origin.

Claudia von Boeselager: So that's a 10 X difference. Wow.

Marie Cudennec: Yeah. 10 X difference, exactly. It's enormous, absolutely enormous. And we also save emissions from, you know, that it would cost to process the waste in landfill as well. 'Cause that's not even taking that into account.

There's, you know, a huge climate action piece there. I think without even trying, we are all, you know, we cycle everywhere, we just live and breathe it. It's just that we are all people that are that way minded, regardless of what background we come from. And that I find fascinating. I mean, we transcend age, culture, you name it, and we're all, you know, sort of united by our bicycles, which I just, I think it's really quite sweet actually.

Claudia von Boeselager: I love it.

Marie Cudennec: And responsible consumption and production is really at the heart of the Goldfinger business model.

We save emissions. As I say, we support zero waste in everything we do, and we respect the environment in all our choices. It's really, kind of, what drives us.
And our retail platform is really about giving people the ability to basically furnish their home, whatever it may be, whether it's candles or, and we actually are in an e-commerce sustainable marketplace for everything sustainable for the home.

And that's something very new that we launched as a sort of result of COVID realizing that we really needed to move into e-commerce. So we've become a platform for basically supporting other independent makers and designers that share our values, and share our ethos. So-

Claudia von Boeselager: Excellent

Marie Cudennec: We went from a, you know, a store that had about 20 products pre-COVID, to now about 300 products, which is great.

Claudia von Boeselager: Exciting.

Marie Cudennec: Yeah.

Claudia von Boeselager: Amazing. And so, you said it touches on different areas, and maybe you can talk a bit about the joinery workshop and Goldfinger Academy and Goldfinger Kitchen as well.

Marie Cudennec: Yes, definitely. Yes, we do a lot. This is the feedback, and most people love it.

It was like, how does it all work? Until you then see it, when you come and see it in person, it all makes sense.

So the, yeah, the bespoke joinery is very much at the heart of what we do. And that is how we live, that is what drives us. Translating anybody's design dreams and wishes, whether it's, you know, a bedside table for your house, a dining table for your, for your house, or desk, or whatever it may be, or your entire restaurant, you know, furnishings. And so we really work closely either directly with the client or with interior designers and architects, as I said, and we do it in the most sustainable way in terms of material selection, but also in, in sometimes advising on the design, we will sometimes get, you know, given this is the design we'd like to make, but we, that way of designing it is quite inefficient with how the wood is cut.

And so then the designer will advise, you know, an equally aesthetic way to actually minimize, and he would say thus more aesthetic, because he's so, you know, form and function have to, you know, work together. And so, yeah, it's, it's a really, it's a collaborative process. The design process. And our furniture, you know, as I said, is sitting in, in Gail's Artisan Bakeries. We've done a collection for Tom Dixon.

We did some window displays for Whistles, last Christmas. This huge sustainable campaign, which is lovely. You can see the website, there's actually a video that they did about it on our website, where they got us to produce their Christmas window decorations, which were little wooden Christmas trees.

Claudia von Boeselager: Beautiful.

Marie Cudennec: So that in itself was already amazing, but they went beyond that, and they basically allowed, to create this circular economy story, they sold the trees to their clients. So clients would often say, or customers will walk in: "I love this. Can I have it?" And so they've decided to actually sell their Christmas windows because rather than it going in the bin, you know, they, and so they were selling the Christmas trees, but all the sales from the trees were then donated back to our Goldfinger Academy. So they were really using that power as a brand to fundraise for our charitable activities.

Claudia von Boeselager: Oh, I love that.

Marie Cudennec: It was really lovely. Yeah.

Claudia von Boeselager: Yeah, the circle economy again as well. And Goldfinger Academy, can you walk us through that?

Marie Cudennec: Yeah. So the Goldfinger Academy is really the teaching arm, the educational arm of Goldfinger, and where we equip young learners with the skills and the confidence to become the sustainability-minded designers of the future.
So it's really about teaching, you know, practical skills of making, and we've gone, you know, we have a lot of different programs from apprenticeships, you know, where young people from the community who are not in education, employment, or training, have come in and done on the job training alongside a formal qualification in carpentry or a joiner. To the more, anybody, like you or me, just want to come for an evening course or the weekend-

Claudia von Boeselager: Oh, I'd love to try that.

Marie Cudennec: You know, make a wreath or make a, make a little wallet at the moment. And so obviously it's been such a journey translating all those courses into the online world. And so all our courses are now online, but we can't wait for a time when they can be in person again.

But most recently, and the direction that our academy is really going in, is actually partnering with schools. We've had the privilege of having Hermes, the French luxury brand, their foundation, support our academy since the beginning through the apprenticeship programs. And most recently with actually their school program, they've developed a curriculum called Manufacto, which has been rolled out in, in hundreds of schools in France, which is a 12-week course, inside primary schools, where artisans, you know, who are trained in this method, go and teach, you know, there's different various groups, but from 10 or 11-year-olds to make an object. And one of the objects is a lamp.

Marie Cudennec: And it's a really lovely thing, 'cause you know, they, they do a little bit of electric and you know, they turn it on it, and they basically are making their own lamp in that 12-week period.

Claudia von Boeselager: Wow.

Marie Cudennec: It really sensitizes them to, number one, the fact that these professions even exist, because a lot of kids don't even have that. I certainly didn't have any of that at school.
And I wish I had.

Claudia von Boeselager: Yes.

Marie Cudennec:And so Hermes have chosen us to be their UK partner to teach that program in UK schools. And we had our pilot in September twenty, the Autumn term of 2020, just gone, at a school in Camden. And it was absolutely brilliant. So we're going to be rolling that out to more schools. So our big thing is really developing a program for school children that goes alongside, which is very much about design thinking, and giving, you know, children the tools to really become the sustainably-minded designers of the future.

Claudia von Boeselager: I love it. So amazing. And the last thing to touch on here is the Goldfinger Kitchen. Could you tell us what that is?

Marie Cudennec: Yes, absolutely. So, yes, it's a real project, that's very, very close to our heart. So we have a restaurant at Goldfinger. And it's a Sicilian chef and his wife, so it's a very, sort of, small Mom and Pop shop that just produces the most sensational Italian food. And there's a queue outside the door every day, COVID, not COVID, it's just become the most popular place in the neighborhood. And it really is this sort of meeting place. And it's an incredible thing because they really managed to bridge, which was always my vision for it. I actually was doing it. I told you I loved food.

So I was actually running it a long time ago at the beginning. And then things got too busy with Goldfinger, and I said, I need to get a chef to run this. And we found them in about 2016 and it's a partnership made in heaven.

They do very, you know, it's very much Sicilian, authentic Italian food, but it's very affordable.

But absolutely delicious, you know, hearty, rustic, Italian food, using all the, you know, lovely local seasonal, British produce. So we're very, very lucky to have them. But something that actually predates that is something, I started, which was our Goldfinger Kitchen we call our People's Kitchen, which was a monthly community feast, which, basically where we invited the local community to come and have a free meal.

And we would cook it from surplus food that we would collect from local markets. So you can see the theme running through. It's all about seeing the potential in material that others are not valuing, for whatever reason. And we would cook this lovely meal, and about 50 or 60 people would come, and we would all sit around this big table.

We would turn the restaurant into one giant table that everyone-

Claudia von Boeselager: Wow, like the big Italian family.

Marie Cudennec: Exactly, exactly that. And, you know, sometimes some live musicians, you know, donate their time, and all of that. And so really lovely. Most of the attendees, are very much low-income, slightly, you know, elderly people.
And, so COVID hit last year.

Claudia von Boeselager: Yeah.

Marie Cudennec: And we have to cancel, obviously, the March one, you know, sort of took us, and I remember it was, the first one we canceled was March, realizing, you know, we can't put these elderly people at risk. And even this was before, you know, we were still in, kind of, figuring out what was going on, but very quickly on we, we realized that actually this service, you know, which at the time was a meal, so it was food, but it was also social. And we knew that a lot of the people came because of the social contact. Because of the, meeting their neighbors, a lot of them live alone, and it was their one meal, their one fun event of the month, where they got a restaurant quality meal. And, you know, everybody was just communing over this food.

And we realized, before we knew about all the social, you know, isolation, and how difficult it was actually going to be, that this was actually a really vital service that we needed to keep going somehow. But we were like, how, you know? And so we decided to pivot it to become a meal delivery service, that we would go and do socially-distanced drop-offs. Firstly, identify all the people who used to come, and get people to refer people who were basically in that vulnerable category.
And so we ended up increasing our meal list to between 150 to 200 people every single Sunday as well-

Claudia von Boeselager: Wow.

Marie Cudennec: Not just once a month. And so we've been delivering meals to those, about 200, people every Sunday, since the beginning of the lockdown,

Claudia von Boeselager: That's really incredible.

Marie Cudennec: Through the generosity of our donors, of our community. Yeah, it's really, really incredible.

And it really has just, we now have guest chefs who are coming in to join and help. And the whole thing, you know, is, the volunteers show up and deliver the food. And you're more than welcome to come and check it out, but people-

Claudia von Boeselager: Oh, I'd love to come and volunteer once.

Marie Cudennec: Yeah.

Claudia von Boeselager: It sounds amazing. Well done. I mean, look at these incredible ecosystems in each of these different areas that you've created, really incredible work.

You've also won awards for your work and you were selected for the NatWest Everywoman Award in 2020. So, for listeners unfamiliar, can you describe the significance of this?

Marie Cudennec: Every year they do this award. And I was very lucky to get to the one that was for the social enterprise.

Claudia von Boeselager: There's no such thing as luck. The hard work.

Marie Cudennec: And so it was lovely, always lovely to be recognized by awards. And it was also great to meet with other like-minded business owners owners who had been nominated. Obviously the whole thing was online. It was digital. So there was no big event. It was all, it was, you know, probably a less of a, an experience than it would have been other years.

But nevertheless, it was absolutely wonderful, and a real honor to be showcased and, you know, to really put Goldfinger's message to a wider audience, and to really be able to share the good work and, you know, get more donations in for our People's Kitchen, and all of that. So the more the word gets out there about us, the more impact we can create.

Claudia von Boeselager: So wonderful. For listeners interested in learning more about sustainability, and making a positive impact on the planet, what are resources or books you would recommend to start with?

Marie Cudennec: So there's a great book by Christiana Figueres, who's really, sort of, single-handedly, was the woman behind the Paris Agreement in 2015, which seemed like the most impossible task at the time.

And she's amazing. Called 'The Future We Choose'. So I highly recommend that as a great read. Another one is a more of an unusual one, is 'Sacred Cow', which is an absolutely brilliant documentary and book. Do the documentary if you can't, you know, if you don't feel like doing, but the book does go into a lot more detail.
And it's very much promoting regenerative agriculture as pretty much the solution to climate change, and dispelling a lot of myths around cows being the reason, you know, there's a lot of, and I won't go into it now, but she basically puts forward the nutritional environmental, and ethical, case for better meat. And for regenerative agriculture.

Yeah, that was a really, really fascinating read, recently. I would say those are really, probably my two most seminal ones that I, kind of, will go back to a lot. And I think-

Claudia von Boeselager: Perfect. I'll link them in the show notes, for listeners.

Marie Cudennec: Yeah. The, the other thing I would say actually, which isn't a book, but, a must watch, anybody interested in sustainability, is the TED Countdown videos. For those of you who haven't seen it, it was launched just in October. TED have partnered with an organization we work very closely with called Leaders' Quest on TED Countdown, which is very much all about counting down, you know, to the next big event is obviously COP 21 in Glasgow.

But, you know, and it's very kind of, action-orientated, it's very hopeful, it's very optimistic. None of this doom and gloom of just telling you statistics of how screwed we are. It's sort of painting, yes, there's a reality here, but we are all part of the solution, and let's all take part, whether you're a business, an individual, whoever you are, you have a place to play in this climate change emergency.
So TED Countdown go check it out. There's some really, I mean, even the Pope spoke. I mean, how cool is that?

Claudia von Boeselager: That's pretty cool. Amazing. Where can people follow what you are up to at Goldfinger? Is there a newsletter, or social media channels, where's the best place to see what you're doing?

Marie Cudennec: Absolutely, there's, yes, so absolutely, please come and follow us on Instagram @Goldfinger.Design, where we're always posting, you know, latest design inspiration, behind the scenes in the workshop, and all sorts of really fun stuff.

Our newsletter is also fabulous, weekly, and lots of great stories about the stories behind the makers. And we often really like to go under the surface of what really moves people, what motivates people, what inspires people. You can sign up at the website, which is Goldfinger.Design. And there should be a pop-up that pops up, and in fact, at the moment you're in, if you sign up, you're in a chance to win a Goldfinger chopping board and Goldfinger candle, if you sign up for the newsletter. So definitely head over to the website and sign up. And the final thing, which is definitely the most fun, is come and see us. From April 12th, we will be reopened to the public, both for outdoor hospitality, so come for some Sicilian food and, and our shop will be open, so come and browse, and we'll give you a tour of our workshops, and academy underneath it. And you get to see the Trellick Tower, so-

Claudia von Boeselager: I will definitely be coming. And for people in other places around the world, do you ship internationally, for the products?

Marie Cudennec: We do. Yes, we do. Climate neutral deliveries, as well, so. We have a great shipping partner that offsets everything. So yes, we do it in the most sustainable way, but we do ship internationally.

Claudia von Boeselager: Oh, fantastic.

Marie, this has been such a pleasure. Do you have any parting thoughts or messages for my audience?

Marie Cudennec: My biggest, sort of, message is, you know, sustainability, isn't about being, kind of, high and mighty.

And I think a lot of people see it as, oh, you know, it's, there's a lot of judgment around not being sustainable enough. And I think it's just about doing the best you can. Just taking some action, however little, it doesn't matter, you know, and start seeing it as your part in this greater ecosystem. We're all connected.

And just do a little bit. I think the thing is the more you get into it, the more it becomes very easy to just go: "Oh yeah, I'm going to change this." No-one is too small to make a difference. And I love that Dalai Lama quote: "If you've ever spent a night with a mosquito, you will know that."

Claudia von Boeselager: Very, very true.
Thank you so much Marie. This has been so inspiring.

Marie Cudennec: Thank you so much, Claudia, it has been a joy being on here with you, and thank you so much.