Claudia von Boeselager (00:50)
Matt, it's an absolute pleasure to welcome you today to the Longevity and Lifestyle podcast. Thank you so much for taking the time to come on.

Matt Abrahams (00:55)
I am thrilled to be here with you and look forward to our conversation.

Claudia von Boeselager (00:58)
I am very, excited about communication. I just mentioned before earlier today, I just recorded a solo episode about losing your voice. So the opposite to communication, which was also very interesting. But as we know, communication is something that we do every day. Yet so many people, myself included at times, struggle with it, especially in moments that matter most. So the situations where we're suddenly put on the spots, question in a meeting, difficult conversation, job interview, whatever it might be, or even talk in an event, some people really struggle with.

So I'd love to ask, starting with, most people listening have had that moment. You're asked a question your mind goes blank. What is actually happening in the brain, Matt, what's happening in that would we override it essentially?

Matt Abrahams (01:40)
Yeah, so this is people's biggest fear. The reality is it doesn't happen as frequently as we fear it happening. And the fear of blanking out actually increases the likelihood of blanking out. But in that moment, there's a lot going on in our head. We are judging and evaluating. We're trying to predict and plan. And that can really bunch us up and lock us up. On the very first day of my strategic communication class I teach at Stanford's business school, I tell my students that the goal is to maximize mediocrity.

And you should see their jaws drop. These students who are amazing, brilliant, have never been told to be mediocre. But here's the rationale behind it. And it gets to your question. When we put so much pressure on ourselves to do it right, to be good, make our contribution so meaningful, it actually limits the ability to do it. And we freeze. The extreme example of this is memorizing. A lot of people who are nervous will memorize, thinking, this is my way through this.

But in fact, memorizing makes it more likely that you will blank out because your brain, much like a computer, when you have lots of windows or tabs open, you're sucking that precious CPU bandwidth. Same thing is happening in our brains. When I have the right way to do it or I'm putting pressure on myself to do it right, I have less cognitive bandwidth to focus on what's the most important thing in communication, which is connection. So I like to tell my students,

Claudia von Boeselager (03:00)
Hmm.

Matt Abrahams (03:01)
Maximize mediocrity so you can actually achieve communication greatness because when you focus on connecting not perfecting You actually free up resources to really do well So if you do blank out so the best thing you can do before you blank out is take some of that pressure off Just focus on getting the information across there is no right way to communicate there better ways and worse ways. No one right way

And if you do blank out two suggestions, one, go back to go forward. If we lose our phone, lose our keys, how do we find it? We retrace our steps. Same thing in your messaging. If I can't remember what's next, repeat what you just said that often gets you back on track. And if you need just a break rather than say, no, I've forgotten or I can't believe I forgot, just ask the audience a question. You know, when I forget what I need to say, when I teach, I'll ask my students, I'll say, let's pause for a moment and think about how we can apply what we've just discussed.

In this project in your life, whatever so asking a question Is engaging the audience focuses on it and in that moment you can take a deep breath and try to regain regain your place so It's not as likely as we think it is we make it worse by trying to be right So if we can dial that down and focus on connection not perfection And then we know that we can go back to go forward or ask a question to get back on track Then all of a sudden the fangs of this fear Are taken out and you can actually communicate better

Claudia von Boeselager (04:21)
I love that. the go back to go forward, think is really good too. Asking a question. I just wonder if I'm presenting something and I'm in the middle of explaining step number three. then I'm like, wait, let me stop and ask a question. I guess you can. attention.

Matt Abrahams (04:31)
Well, so you can just stop, could just say, you will remember you.

Yeah, you'll remember that you spoke step one and step two, you could just say, hey, let's think about how any questions on step one or step two or how can we make step one or step two more efficient for everybody? And there are lots of ways to come up with questions.

Claudia von Boeselager (04:47)
Yeah. And I guess for the listener too, it makes them go from listening mode to reflection mode. And so it changes the dynamic and they feel more brought into the conversation almost right?

Matt Abrahams (04:53)
That's right.

100 % and then you become more of a facilitator than presenter, which also takes pressure off.

Claudia von Boeselager (05:02)
and which is great for connection. So, okay, strategy here. This is amazing. So most communication advice focuses on prepared presentations, right? But a lot of life happens spontaneously. So why are these in the moment conversations often the hardest for people? And especially because you were saying it's about connection, but humans want to connect. why are these so difficult for so many people?

Matt Abrahams (05:05)
There you go, you figured it out, yes.

Yes.

Well, so a lot of us feel under pressure to again to do it right and do it well and that really puts pressure on us. In addition, in these spontaneous moments, we really want to or hope to respond right away. So there's this time pressure to we can remove that time pressure. There's nothing that says when somebody asks you a question or asks you for feedback in the moment, you have to give it that second, you could say, let me think about it for a moment or ask a clarifying question or paraphrase what they've asked.

So there are lots of ways to buy time. So I think the reasons we feel pressure are one, we want to do it right. And that's what we talked about just a few moments ago. Two, we feel this intense time pressure. And in many of these cases, we want people to see us as worthy, smart, important people. And there's this added social pressure. So when somebody asks a question, it's not just about answering it. I want people to think I'm smart. Right. And so

We need to remind ourselves that our goal is just to be in service of the people we're communicating with and that dials down that intense desire to be liked, seen as smart, et cetera. So it's a confluence of things that make us nervous and feel these situations are really intense. Now, the nice thing is with a little practice and preparation, you can actually do really well in spontaneous moments. And I know that sounds counterintuitive, preparing to be spontaneous.

But I always use the example of athletes. Athletes all the time drill and practice so when they're in their sport, whatever it is, they can respond in the moment to what's needed.

Claudia von Boeselager (06:55)
Okay. So how does one practice? What are your tips and tools for practicing like an athlete would do so that in spontaneous conversation, you can be eloquent, you can get the point across without being too elaborate, let's say.

Matt Abrahams (07:09)
There are a tremendous number of things that we can The book that I wrote, Think Faster, Talk Smarter, is all about this methodology that I've been testing and using with clients and my students for over a decade now. it's really about mindset and messaging. So we have to practice both. Mindset, we have to deal with anxiety. Most people get anxious and nervous speaking. Happy to talk a little bit more about that.

We have to see these opportunities, not threats. Many of us think of spontaneous speaking situations as threatening challenges, when in they can be opportunities for us to connect, to learn, to collaborate. And then we also have to listen better. We have to slow down and listen. I know When you shared that you lost your voice, you were in listening mode a lot. And that changes just the dynamic and how we feel about things.

so that's the first part. And then the second part is we have to work on messaging, how we craft and structure messages. But once you've learned that methodology, once you feel comfortable with it, you have to practice and there are lots of ways to practice low stakes situations. So instead of practicing when you're going into that, big conference and you need to be connecting and you need to be pitching. Start doing it in your team meetings or with your family and friends working on some of these techniques. you can use AI to help.

You know much like an athlete would have a partner help them practice play defense when they're in offense or offense when they're on defense Have ai ask you challenging questions on the you're presenting not to memorize the answers but just to get used to answering So there are lots of things we can do to help prepare ourselves for these spontaneous moments

Claudia von Boeselager (08:39)
I like that leveraging AI. I have a few questions on that later But you've shared your story about your place in the alphabet, forcing you to speak spontaneously in class. Can you explain this story for our audience and how did that experience shape your curiosity around communication?

Matt Abrahams (08:46)
Yes.

Yes, indeed. So I've had a few experiences in my life, especially when I was in that informed what I do. So my last name is Abrahams, A-B. Most school teachers, at least at some point, situate students alphabetically. So I always knew where I would sit. In fact, only now at Stanford's Business School is there somebody whose last name comes before me, Ocker, AA. So I've always gone first. And so whenever the teachers would ask,

students for questions, we'd have to do pop quizzes, exams, whatever. I always went first. So I have been dealing with struggling with thinking about spontaneous speaking as long as I can remember. I still have friends that say they were so grateful that they were a little bit farther in the alphabet so they could have a chance to think about it, et cetera. So when I was asked by the deans at Stanford's Business School to help, we had a problem with our students over a decade ago.

They were struggling to answer cold calls. You remember that where the professor would say, what do you think? And you had to respond right away. Our students knew the answers. They had what they needed. They were just so overwhelmed in that moment. So they asked me to come up with a methodology to help. And this is something I've been thinking about for decades because it's something I have always struggled with. So my personal experience led to my interest and then others being in situations similar to mine.

is really what ignited the interest in the resulting methodology that came out.

Claudia von Boeselager (10:18)
Amazing. One of Matt, you challenge is that thinking and speaking quickly is a natural talent. Why do people believe this and what does the science actually show?

Matt Abrahams (10:29)
Well, so many of us feel that we're just not born with the gift of gab. There are people who are just good at it. We see our friends who are extremely extroverted, you know, and we feel less extroverted or maybe even introverted and feel that's just not for us. By the way, introversion is an amazing skill. It's very beneficial and introverts can be very confident and speak very well in the moment, but we see others do it and we think, they're just gifted. In fact, they're not, they have worked hard at it now.

People who tend to be a little more extroverted, ⁓ risk seeking, handle ambiguity better, might have a slight leg up because they're willing to put their foot in the pool a little bit deeper and quicker than others. But that doesn't mean that we can't learn to do it. And in fact, a lot of the skills that people who are more shy, reticent, introverted have actually help with these spontaneous moments.

But it is something that we see others do and feel intimidated. And the other thing is we're never taught this. If you think about all the ways in which we formally learn how to communicate, very rarely or if ever do people teach us how to respond spontaneously. It's always planning for planned communication, speeches, pitches, presentations with meetings with agendas. If you get any training, it's always in that regard. There's really very little that does spontaneous speaking.

Claudia von Boeselager (11:48)
would you love to see at schools? Like how would you love this to be taught to children?

Matt Abrahams (11:53)
And actually, I'm very heartened that we are seeing more of this and how it's coming up in schools is more collaboration and group work. And if you think about students when they have to do collaboration and group work, they're doing a lot of spontaneous speaking. And what teachers are doing is they're trying to help the kids, the students to learn how to do group work better. And in some ways, they are teaching spontaneous speaking skills like listening. can't all speak at once.

Or when you do speak, make sure that you share something that's adding value and contributing to the conversation. So we are starting to see it, but it's not called out separately as something to work on.

Claudia von Boeselager (12:30)
you had a magic wand, what would you say? Like the kids should be doing group work and speaking more often every day?

Matt Abrahams (12:35)
If

everybody should learn this. So I would have teachers do a few things. One, just like they teach people grammar and how to write, they should be teaching people how to speak. Those skills overlap. There's a lot that we can be teaching our students. We can ask them, for example, in writing, as they're writing a draft of something, to speak it out to somebody. really getting people used to speaking.

Really leaning into the dialogic approach of teaching that's sort of the Aristotelian way of question asking Teaching people not just how to think on your feet and respond but how to be thoughtful about how you're responding and then as adults in kids lives we should be Taking time to reflect on our own communication and to actually articulate what we're doing You know, my wife and I made very conscious efforts when our kids were younger to

talk through our communication, our decision making, even our conflict, so that our kids could see what are the issues and things we're thinking about, trying to role model critical thinking. Communication, to me, is nothing more than operationalized critical thinking. And so if we take the time to explicate that, delineate that, we can really help people feel more comfortable and confident. And I'd love to see teachers in schools do more of this.

Claudia von Boeselager (13:49)
I love that. it's, you know, helping them understand the thought process behind getting to a decision, which helps them understand, okay, this is why, and this is how you're thinking about it,

Matt Abrahams (14:00)
take it

one level further, which is then how do I communicate that decision and thought process? And that's really important. And by the way, there's an added benefit when we have to articulate it, it actually forces us to think more about it. So we actually can learn from the teaching that we're doing.

Claudia von Boeselager (14:14)
amazing. Matt, if you had 30 seconds to prepare for a high stakes moments, let's say boardroom question, investor pitch, and you know, being put on the spots, what would you do in those 30 seconds? How do you, how do you function? How does your mind work?

Matt Abrahams (14:28)
Yeah, so one of the big things that I work with people on is what I call creating an anxiety management plan and AMP many people are nervous. Many people uncomfortable in planned and spontaneous speaking situations. So in advance, if you can craft an anxiety management plan that deals both with your symptoms and sources, it can help. So if I had 30 seconds, knowing I was going into a high stakes spontaneous situation,

Would do my anxiety management plan which for me is three things one. I would take a deep belly breath Really to slow my heart rate slow my speaking rate get me present oriented So if you've ever done yoga meditation Tai Chi, it's that kind of breath I do two or three of those next and this is sounds silly I would say a tongue twister out loud not in front of people but

I want to warm up my voice. You shared, you have had some voice issues, losing your voice. We have to warm up our voice. Many people think they can just go from silence to brilliance. So I have this favorite tongue twister I like to say. I say, I slit a sheet, a sheet I slit, and on that slitted sheet I sit. And I say it three times fast, out loud, warms up my voice, and gets me present-oriented. And the reason I like this tongue twister is if you say it wrong, you say a naughty word. So it helps me focus.

Claudia von Boeselager (15:39)
You

Matt Abrahams (15:41)
And then the final thing I would do is I would just remind myself that I am in service of my audience. I, like most people can get in my head and say, you're not prepared. Or these people are so smart or this room is so big with so many people. And I just remind myself I'm here and have value to bring. There's a reason I'm here. People have asked me here. This is my job, my role, whatever. So deep breath, say a tongue twister or do anything to get myself present in the moment. And then remind myself I have served, I have value to bring. I'm in service of the audience.

That's how I get ready if I only have 30 seconds to do so.

Claudia von Boeselager (16:12)
Beautiful. And I think the breath is such a powerful one, like the box breath, right? Whatever it is for people, but that getting present. And then I agree with you. It's not about you. It's about the message that somebody needs to hear that you are going to communicate to them as well. So being in service. I love it. Very, very beautiful, Matt. You outline a six step framework for thinking faster and talking smarter. What are the key principles people should understand from that today?

Matt Abrahams (16:16)
Yeah.

That's right.

Mm-hmm.

Well, it's about two things. It's about mindset and messaging. So it's not just about saying, okay, I'm ready, I'm focused, and now I can do it. You actually have to have specific communicative messaging tools, nor is it sufficient just to have, I know these structures and frameworks and now I'm ready to go. So we have to work on our mindset and then the actual messaging that comes that we use in those moments. So taking the time to think that through it helps.

In the methodology that Think Faster, Talk or the courses I teach talk about, there are four steps involved in the mindset piece and then there are two steps that are involved in the messaging. And when you put them all together, you are able to respond better and more effectively in spontaneous the reality is if you just do a few of the steps, you're gonna be better off than had you done none.

Claudia von Boeselager (17:23)
How long does it take to perfect? I don't want to say because you talked about being mediocre, but if somebody's on the

Matt Abrahams (17:29)
well, I don't think there is any

It's a hard question to answer because everybody is different I think just knowing the methodology helps practicing any step helps it's Graduated, you know any movement in one direction is better than not So, I'll give you an example I take my MBA students within the first three weeks of their being on campus They go through this 90 minute session with me where we walk through the methodology

And we have data to show even after just that 90 minute intervention, that workshop, intervention makes it sound like it's cold and austere. not. It's a lot of fun and They report self-confidence increasing. The professors they have interact with them in a spontaneous way see a difference in a positive direction. So it can happen very quickly, but it takes does developing any skill.

Claudia von Boeselager (18:14)
Yeah, and I think it's such a key skill. mean, would you, I would guess you're going to say yes to this, but in terms of skills for life, this would definitely come in the top three with the number one skill. What would you say? In terms of life skills in general. Yeah.

Matt Abrahams (18:25)
skills in general. so

yeah, so I think communication is if not the top among the top and there's research to say that you know when you look at employers they say communication is a top skill top one two skill in interpersonal relationships. Communication is critical. I think things that are associated with and part of communication are up there as well empathy listening. These are all connected together. So yes, I think

if there's one skill people could work on to help better their careers their self Worth and value they see with themselves and in their interpersonal relationships. It's got to be communication I can't see anything that is more in all encompassing them

Claudia von Boeselager (19:06)
And Matt, what about listening? How much of communication the importance of listening Like, how do you teach that? How do you help people understand the balance, right? Because it's not just about talking, talking, talking, right? You need to pause, need listen, ask questions. So let's talk about listening and what's your view that into communication?

Matt Abrahams (19:18)
Right.

So listening is critically important. It is absolutely essential and it really helps form the foundation of what needs to be said in the moment or plan. And it helps you build trust and connection. Now I have to be very candid. My wife thinks I'm a total fraud when I talk about listening because she sees there's a lot of work to be done and I am working on it. You asked how do I teach listening? So first and foremost, it's recognition that we aren't as good at listening

We could be many of us listen just enough to get the gist of what somebody is saying and then we Say our thoughts we start judging practicing the whole bunch of stuff happens to truly listen Well, you have to be present you have to connect. I Learned an approach from a colleague of mine Collins Dobbs He teaches coursework on how to have crucial critical conversations and in that he applies a methodology called pace space grace

And with his permission, I've adapted that approach not for these challenging communication situations, but for listening. In order to listen well, you have to ace it. You have to focus on pace, space and grace. First, we have to slow things down. All of us live very busy lives where there's a lot of information coming our way. If you slow down, you can actually be much more present and be responsive to what's happening. So pace and slowing down is important.

Space is also important in two ways one We physically have to be in a space where we can actually hear as I get older restaurants get louder Parties get louder. It's harder to hear. So one physical space matters two mental space. I have to clear the clutter I have to Suspend some of the judgment. I have to say this is important right now. So i'm not only my slowing down I'm dedicating attention and that's space and then finally grace. We have to give ourselves grace and permission

To do our best and permission to listen not just to what is said but how it is said Where it is said when it is said i'll give you a quick example ⁓ A long time ago now. I came out of a meeting with a colleague and my colleague turned to me and said, do you think how to go? Well, it didn't go well. Our meeting was not well received. It was not a good situation

Because I didn't listen deeply, heard feedback and I itemized all the things we did wrong, all the things we could have done better. When in fact, had I really listened, given myself a little grace and allowed myself to see more than just the words he said, he came out the back door. He was looking down, he was speaking quietly and slowly. He didn't want feedback. What he wanted was support and he labeled it as feedback and I missed it. And it took me six weeks to repair that relationship after that. So.

Pace, space, grace, matter. And then the other thing I'll say is when you listen to paraphrase, when you listen for the bottom line, not the top line, it forces you to listen more deeply and to be more present. So to paraphrase, means I take what you've said and I reframe it in my own words, which means I have to really understand what you said. So when we train ourselves and when we practice listening to paraphrase, we set ourselves up to listen deeper. And there's some research from a colleague of mine at Harvard

who has found that when you actually speak the paraphrase, you actually connect better, build trust and start relationships moving on a much deeper path. So it's a big issue. It's one we should all work on. Pace, space, grace, listen to paraphrase. You'll be in a better position.

Claudia von Boeselager (22:47)
A few questions that come off of that. One is for people with a very fast mind, be it ADHD or that they just function at such a high pace and space, And so I appreciate obviously, you know, trying to meditate, be more present, et cetera. And, you know, I'm guilty of this sometimes and I've gotten a lot better, not interrupting people, learning to wait, because I've got the idea, I'm excited or whatever it might be.

Matt Abrahams (22:53)
Yes.

Yes, it's

Claudia von Boeselager (23:10)
So in those situations, what would you encourage? there practices? Is it the breath? Is it meditation or what to do? And then I have a cultural question for you next.

Matt Abrahams (23:16)
Yeah.

Sure, absolutely happy to take it. So many of us, our brains work really quickly. anything that can help us focus and still get become more still will help deep breathing, focusing on how you are feeling in the moment, not emotionally, but physically touching something like right now my body is in the chair, taking a moment to feel my body in the chair, that again gets me present slows me down.

Looking for patterns in what people are saying and connecting dots You know when I challenge myself to listen for the bottom line that forces me to slow down and to focus now Let me be very clear people who are able to think very quickly notice patterns recognize things. This is I don't want to say an advantage, but it is a skill that is helpful But we have to be able to then occasionally focus it and there are ways to practice this drill, you know,

I practiced martial arts for decades and for me part of the martial art practice is to still my mind to be present focused my brain to go between being very fast thinking and in multi-dimensional pattern recognition to calming down being able to make that switch. So it's not about being one or the other it's about the agility to move between those states that can be helpful.

And you can practice it in simple ways. Go for a walk and walk quickly and then stop and notice something in the environment. Training your brain to do that can be really helpful.

Claudia von Boeselager (24:43)
So it's almost like metabolic flexibility, but for the minds, I love it. So I had to connect those dots, see, I was listening to everything you did say though.

Matt Abrahams (24:45)
Yeah, I like that. I like that. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes, that's a good Yeah, but that's

pattern recognition that's that's what's really important and I like that you're making those connections. Thank you

Claudia von Boeselager (25:01)
So if you're gonna put it into your work maybe, but I don't know.

Matt Abrahams (25:03)
Yes, no, I

love learning from as many people as possible.

Claudia von Boeselager (25:07)
No, but my second question, I've lived in nine countries around the world and there is a big span of cultural differences, of course, and what is appreciated in terms of speaking up and communicating versus not communicating and also being in meetings with multiple cultures, let's say, and ways of doing things. in those type of dynamics, how do you encourage someone to adapt properly, in a way to be inclusive?

Matt Abrahams (25:12)
Wow.

Claudia von Boeselager (25:33)
to communicate appropriately that isn't stepping on toes. And I know it's a generalization because many cultures are very different, but your students must come from all over the world.

Matt Abrahams (25:39)
I'm do we we

my classrooms look like the United Nations and and that's lovely and I love the diversity of experience so taking a step back all communication happens within a context and culture and we need to be aware of that context and culture and Understand that there are expectations about what's appropriate etc in those situations.

We need to take a step back if you're new to a culture you need to observe and see what's going on You need to ask questions So certainly when it comes to spontaneous speaking speaking in the moment in any communication we have to be aware of cultural norms and expectations and then make a decision to conform to them or to deviate from them So it is really important and your lived experience I'm sure has shown that the way communication is done in certain cultures matters a lot some people get right to the point some people

have to connect first. Some people are more ambiguous and never clear and that's fine though. No one culture's way of communicating is better than any others. It's appreciating that and then figuring out a way how to bridge that. watching, observing is really what's key.

Claudia von Boeselager (26:50)
I guess one thing you said is also that curiosity, right? To understand, to not just assume my way or the highway and the way I do it is the best way. But it would then enable better connection if you understand cultural.

Matt Abrahams (26:53)
Mm-hmm.

That's correct.

That's right.

That's right. put yourself in a position where you can actually connect. And makes a big difference in these circumstances.

Claudia von Boeselager (27:08)
So you talk about treating mistakes as missed takes. How does this reframe change behavior and practice? What do see?

Matt Abrahams (27:11)
Yeah.

Yes, so one of the big barriers or challenges people experience in spontaneous speaking is they want to do it right as we've talked about and they're afraid of making mistakes and yet we've all heard this and we know it intuitively you learn through making mistakes and am somebody who falls into this trap all the time. I don't want to make mistakes. It feels bad to make mistakes. So many years ago I began to think of mistakes differently.

Very early in my life, I thought I wanted to be a movie director. I grew up on Steven Spielberg films. I actually got into film school, chose not to go, but I've always been interested by television, film, et cetera. And really for me, it's about the storytelling. So I am still doing similar work around story. I'm just not doing it for first screen. And what I learned is that directors do multiple takes. They ask the actors in the scenes,

to do things differently, not because anyone take is wrong, bad, et cetera, but it's just looking for different options. So instead of thinking of mistakes as something that's wrong, think of it as a missed take. It didn't go the way you wanted. So we're just gonna do take two. We know that clapboard where they say take one, take two. So if you have a communication activity and it doesn't go the way you had planned or wanted it to,

Claudia von Boeselager (28:21)
Hmm.

Matt Abrahams (28:32)
Instead of beating yourself up and saying i'm no good or i'm not worthy or this bad thing's going to happen Just think to yourself take two and what does that mean? Well, it means in that moment. Maybe you get another swing. Maybe you get to try it again Maybe i'm having a conversation with you. I answer a question. It doesn't Seem like it landed or didn't come out. Well, maybe I say hey, let me try another way of answering that question take two

Or take two could mean when I'm done I go home I reflect and the next time I'm ready for that second take so it can be in the immediate moment or something that helps us reflect later, but it takes the pressure off Again, when we worry about being right and doing it well being the most interesting that puts so much pressure on us that we actually underperform So when we know that a mistake is just an opportunity for us to do it again

that takes that pressure off, which means we're more likely to perform better.

Claudia von Boeselager (29:24)
Beautiful. like that. will practice it too. And beautiful orators also say, let me rephrase that or let me try that from a different way. You know, just even announcing that they're doing it. you know, yeah, amazing. You introduced the idea of daring to be dull. I love the idea of this. Can you explain what this actually means and why does it work?

Matt Abrahams (29:30)
Yeah, that's That's, that's exactly right. That's exactly right.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

So this is something that I borrowed from improvisation. It's not my idea. I think improv is a wonderful way for people to get more comfortable and become more confident in spontaneous communication. Many of us see improv as, I have to be funny in the moment. And that's not what improv is about at all. Improv is about being present, listening, collaborating, all skills which help in life and in spontaneous communication. And they have these wonderful sayings. The one most people are familiar with is yes and.

Another one of my favorite is don't just do something stand there and that really reinforces how listening and being present is super important and then the one you're highlighting dare to be dull It's very similar to maximize mediocrity. it's sharing or Encouraging us to just do what we know how to do just have that conversation Just say that thing rather than trying to be amazingly insightful

This plays out wonderfully in small talk. Small talk is where you're making chit chat conversation and many great big things can happen in small talk. But many of us feel really pressured. Like I have to be amazing. I have to be interesting. A guest on my show, Think Fast Talk Smart, Rachel Greenwald said something that echoes whenever I'm in one of these small talk situations. She said it's about being interested, not interesting. Dare to be dull.

Claudia von Boeselager (31:04)
Mmm.

Matt Abrahams (31:05)
Just ask a question, just further the conversation along. So again, it all boils down to cognitive load and allowing ourselves, giving us permission to just do what needs to be done in the moment so that we don't overburden ourselves overthinking what needs to happen. And when we do that, great freedom comes from that.

Claudia von Boeselager (31:22)
Beautiful. What's a piece of communication advice that's widely taught, but you believe is actually wrong or outdated? What do you want to correct, Matt, in the world?

Matt Abrahams (31:33)
There's so many things ⁓ one I've already shared

is People will say memorize memorize memorize where memorizing works against you. So the question then becomes What do I do if I don't have my script memorized and that's where structure comes in frameworks come in frameworks are logical connections of ideas They serve as roadmaps. So the framework that knows even though they might not know they know it

is if you've ever seen a television ad, most television ads are in the framework or structure of problem, solution, benefit. There's an issue challenge in the world, the product or service solves or fixes it, makes it better, and then you as a customer client benefit in some way. So that's a structure. So instead of memorizing word for word what I'm going to say, I simply know my map, problem, solution, then benefit. So if I get lost at any point, I can say I just covered the problem, I always know solution follows.

And there are myriad structures. This is just one that people know. So having a structure helps. So the biggest thing I try to correct is avoid memorizing. That's a huge issue that people have, and it works against them.

Claudia von Boeselager (32:34)
And so quick question on that, schools, right? The school system we have at the moment is 200 years old, made for the industrial revolution. So what do you say for all the kids at school, right, that are having to memorize, et cetera? Is it learning in a way with a framework versus every little last thing? It's kind of, you know, I mean, it's different for adults. So I guess we'll keep to it, would you say?

Matt Abrahams (32:40)
Yeah. Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, so you are right that in school kids are taught to memorize and there are many ways to learn things and I think the ability to test your memory is important Memorizing to communicate is not there are many reasons teachers ask students to memorize one It ensures that the students will be focused and you can look at their script read their script and say, okay This is appropriate when people get spontaneous

Claudia von Boeselager (33:06)
Okay.

Matt Abrahams (33:17)
Things can happen and that ambiguity can be concerning. it's easier to manage time when everybody's memorized to their two minute talk, right? But I do think we teach kids a whole bunch of frameworks and structures in math in logic in writing and we need to do the same in speaking and Encourage them to practice that information in structure. The reality is the teachers are using structures. Very few teachers are memorized in their lectures

They follow a all I would love for teachers to do is to let the students in on the process that they themselves are using and encourage them to leverage frameworks. Because the reality is frameworks are flexible. They allow you to adjust and adapt. I hope any good teacher is really teaching kids how to adjust and adapt.

Claudia von Boeselager (33:42)
Mm-hmm.

Matt Abrahams (34:01)
so you know, there's some other myths that are more minor I would say There's this idea in my field that one thought to one person when you're speaking in front of a large audience One thought to one person one thought to another person I don't think that's the way communication works and I think different thoughts take different times And if I look at one person too long one they feel uncomfortable and the other people feel like they're not part of it So i'm not a big fan of one thought to one

person either. And then there's a myth of, you if you're using slides, you know, one slide per minute, or I don't believe in timing slides you know, how many slides per time used slides take as long as they do. What I do believe in is less information on a slide is more valuable, less is more when it comes to that. So there's a whole list of myths that I'd love to bust. But the memorizing one is the big one. Yeah, yeah, maybe.

Claudia von Boeselager (34:50)
Another book. It's another book.

Matt Abrahams (34:53)
Yeah, yeah.

Claudia von Boeselager (34:54)
So many people struggle to speak up in meetings, especially if there's a very dominant person in the conversation. So what do you recommend in situations like that? If someone is hoping to voice their opinion and maybe a little bit more timid, what would you encourage them to know or to do?

Matt Abrahams (35:00)
Yes.

Yes, several things here and this happens a lot. There are often situations where people take up a lot of the air time for good or for bad. So a couple things to think about. If you are somebody who is shy, reticent, has some anxiety, think about ways that you can contribute that feel comfortable to you. So for example, if you're in a virtual meeting is putting things in the chat. Does that help? Is talking to some people in advance of the meeting.

Help so your ideas get out there and others can help bring them forward so it doesn't have to be you initiating So it's through that collaborative approach talking to the organizer of the meeting and saying, you know, I work best when I am in situations where I can Hear what everybody has to say and riff and play off them So encouraging the leader of the meeting to help tone down those who speak too much

And then there things you can do to make a contribution that aren't as risky. Some people feel it's really risky to contribute something. A great thing to do is ask a question or to paraphrase. If you're in the midst of a meeting and there lots of ideas coming around, a really valuable thing to do is to just come in and say, so I'm hearing three major ideas we've been talking about. Help focus and center. You're not contributing anything new, which might be risky because you have to take a position or stance. You're just saying, here's what I've heard.

What are we going to do about it or how can we focus it? So there are lot of ways to contribute and to add value that are less risky than asserting a position or contradicting what somebody has said. So I encourage people to find ways to contribute that are comfortable for them.

Claudia von Boeselager (36:42)
That's gold. Really, really good. And I also like the summarizing. think it is really, really beneficial when someone actually pauses and just to say, like, let's just recap what we're hearing here because everyone's mind is full of ideas and they're onto the next one and no one's actually listening properly. So yeah, really, really gold. Matt, when you work with top leaders, IPO founders, TED speakers, global executives, what do the best communicators consistently do differently?

Matt Abrahams (36:58)
Yes.

So they prepare and again, if it's spontaneous, you can still do preparation and they actually practice and practice isn't just thinking what you want to say. They actually speak it out in front of others and solicit feedback. I don't know about you, but in my mind, I'm amazingly eloquent. And when I open up my mouth, I'm not always as lucky. And so it's important for us to actually practice. And it's about iteration. The best communicators I know iterate.

Claudia von Boeselager (37:25)
Yep.

Matt Abrahams (37:34)
They'll come up with an idea and they'll have a goal for their talk or for their meeting and they'll actually run it by people, get feedback. We're not the best judges of our communication. They'll then sketch out an outline based on a structure and then they'll get feedback on that. It's this notion of rapid prototyping, constantly practicing and recording themselves and watching and listening and seeing how they do. So.

There's a lot of work, you know, I use standup comedians as an analogy for what really effective speakers do, not the being funny part, but a good standup comedian workshops their material a lot. They don't just one afternoon, write it down and then go nail a show. They practice a lot. And when I work with these very talented senior leaders, they'll say, yeah, I spent an hour on a plane writing the presentation, I'm ready to go.

I'll often ask them I say who's your favorite comedian and they'll say whoever it is and I'll say how long do think they practice and they're like ⁓ I get the point. So I really think it's the rapid prototyping the actual practice the speaking out loud That's what makes the difference. You know, there's no easy way to do this. You have to put in the reps

Claudia von Boeselager (38:39)
And also I'm curious, intonation, pausing. Can you talk about that particularly when giving a speech, right? How that's important or not and how people can practice that and maybe just to break it down a little bit as we finish up today,

Matt Abrahams (38:52)
Yeah, so how you say something is as important as what you say and in some cases it might even be more important and your voice is incredibly important it is One of the single biggest trust and connection cues we have so your voice needs to be thought about and practiced so a few things one variation is important The human brain is designed for novelty. We we like and pay attention to things that change if I were to have

Spoken like this the whole time we had our conversation You'd be bored out of your mind and certainly nobody would listen into it. So variation is important. How do we increase variation? Well one we record ourselves and listen do we have variation in our voice? hard to listen to yourself absolutely, but Wonderfully rich information from doing so we can build in more emotive words or more variation by using emotive words I would never say I'm really excited

To be here. I would say I'm really excited those emotive words invite inflection. I would never say this is a big problem. No, I'd this is a big problem. So use the emotive words as a reason for inflecting your voice. So it's important to think about varying your volume, but also varying your rate. If I want to imply something's really important, I speak up. Or if I'm really excited, I speak quickly. If I want you to really think about something and understand

At a detailed level I slow down so variation is really important, but your voice is a wind instrument It's a tool you have to warm it up. You have to practice with it. You have to take care of it You have to make sure that you use breath Well, so lower Breathing is what will give you more vocal range I had the good fortune on my podcast think fast talk smart of interviewing the woman who for the royal Shakespearean

theater company does all their voice work. And she goes beyond what I've just shared. She talks about your physicality before actors get on stage that work with her. They're physically stretching their bodies. They're doing all these moves to expand their lung capacity so they can really dig into their voice. So when it comes to voice, when it comes to all of this, there's a lot you can do. I am not an expert at all in voice.

But all of us can really work on it. It is a true tool that makes a big difference.

Claudia von Boeselager (41:10)
Yes, for sure. So as we close up today, and thank you so much, I have so many further questions, but I appreciate we're at time. Where can people find you? Where would you like to point them to your books, websites, social media? we can link everything in the show notes.

Matt Abrahams (41:15)
Sure.

Thank you and I really appreciate the opportunity to chat with you. really like the questions that we discussed. You highlight a lot of important things. Best place to go for me is fastestsmarter.io. You'll find lots of information about the show I host and other things. I also have a personal website, mattabrahams.com. So fastestsmarter.io or mattabrahams.com. can get access to the books. You will be pointed to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.

Happy to help people and LinkedIn is another great place to go. You can link in with me as well. I really appreciate the conversation.

Claudia von Boeselager (41:53)
me too, Matt. And I just wonder if you have any parting thought message, piece of advice for my audience today.

Matt Abrahams (41:59)
Sure. The only way you get good at communication is three things, just like any other skill, repetition, reflection, and feedback. You have to practice. You can't get better at communication without doing it. You have to reflect what worked, what didn't work. And then finally get feedback from others. If you do these three things over time, your communication will improve, you'll feel better about it, and you'll be able to have a bigger impact in your own life and the lives of other people.

Claudia von Boeselager (42:24)
Beautiful. Matt, thank you so much for your time today. It's been an absolute pleasure to have you on.

Matt Abrahams (42:28)
Thank you, and it was lovely to chat with you.