Claudia von Boeselager: Mariko, you're doing some amazing work in helping people solve for a major piece of the healthy lifestyle and longevity puzzle around mental and emotional health, and wellbeing.
You've had an incredible journey, as we've discussed before, that has brought you to where you are now, helping clients feel empowered, relieve anxiety, trauma, grief, and other life-impairing emotions. But before we jump in, I hear you have a great story about tapping your way out of getting rid of your fear of needles while waiting in a room for acupuncture.
Can you tell us about this?

Mariko Bangerter: Yeah, sure. I totally forgot about that, but yes, I mean, I've used the EFT tapping tool a lot on myself, of course, but yeah, this specific story, it was just so important for me. It got me out of such a quagmire because I had booked myself in for a series of acupuncture sessions, but my whole life, I had had such a major fear, or phobia, of needles. As a kid, I think, before getting a vaccine or an injection, I think I fainted and I've always had the worst fear of needles.
And so I was finding myself at the start of my first acupuncture session, knowing that it would really help me, but with this phobia. And so I just remember, yeah, I was just in the waiting room, just tapping on myself and on my fear of needles. And, you know, perhaps I can talk about the process a little bit more later, but that's the amazing thing about tapping is that it is a self-help tool and, you know, you don't need anything else to do it, you can do it at any point. It's so accessible to anyone once you learn the basics.
And so I was there in the waiting room. I think I just tapped for five minutes on my fear of needles. And I was able to then go into my first session and be relatively relaxed. And then, because that first session ended up being quite a positive experience for me, it sort of, it then started to rewrite my story around my phobia of needles.
And so I was then able to go into the second session, the third session, the fourth session, with no problems. So yeah, it was life-changing.

Claudia von Boeselager: That's so amazing. And I guess it could address any phobia. If you're scared of deep water, spiders, things like that as well?

Mariko Bangerter: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Actually, working with phobia is something that is very quickly solved with EFT tapping, relative to other forms of therapies. You know, phobia specifically is something that I can, and most qualified practitioners can, help someone resolve in usually one session, one or two, really a relatively short amount of time, because the more specific the issue is the faster it is to resolve.
So a phobia is, tends to be very specific. Yeah.
Okay. I'm really excited to dive deep into also understanding how that works. But before we jump into that, something you mentioned before that I'd love to ask you about is that you have this amazing view of what a challenge is. And I'd love you to talk about how you perceive challenges.

Claudia von Boeselager: I really liked what you said before.
Well, I think, simply put, challenge equals growth. Growth doesn't happen from resting on your laurels in a complacent state. I think a challenge is really opening a door of possibility for you to upgrade, uplevel, and evolve. And I think any form of challenge tends to make someone just a richer person, more able to then relate to other humans around the world, and more able to understand human suffering, which is, kind of, a universal truth, a universal reality.

Mariko Bangerter: And we have this way of often, this dualistic notion of splitting everything into good or bad, or right or wrong. And I just think, actually, we can't avoid challenge in life. And I think it's really, sort of, a blessing in disguise. It's just a calling. The calling for you to grow. Yeah.

Claudia von Boeselager: I really liked that.
And it reminds a bit of Joseph Campbell's Hero's Journey, right? That we have this calling, and have to face then the inner dragon, and pacify the dragon as well. So I really, really like that.
Moving over to EFT or the Emotional Freedom Technique. Would love for you to explain what it is. And can you talk a bit about that science behind it?

Mariko Bangerter: Emotional Freedom Techniques is a modality that was created in the early 90s in the States. And it was an evolution of Thought Field Therapy, which is part of a field called energy psychology in which we are using psychotherapeutic techniques, but also acknowledging the existence of, and using, the body's energy system.
So the body's energy field, also known as acupressure points stimulation. So that part of it is pretty ancient. It was used in China, the traditional Chinese medicine for millennia now, and even in other Eastern philosophies, like in Vedic philosophies, they also acknowledge the body's energy system, the meridians, they would refer to it as the chakras.
So it's this combination of more contemporary psychotherapeutic techniques, and talk therapy, as well as, yeah, cognitive therapy, with NLP, so neurolinguistic programming, kind of laced through it whilst stimulating the acupressure points.
So maybe that sounds really complicated and convoluted, but essentially Dr. Peta Stapleton, so she's this Australian psychologist and researcher behind the science of EFT, she's also a practitioner herself, but she's done some incredible research in this field to understand why this works so well. She calls EFT part of the fourth wave of psychotherapy, along with techniques like EMDR in that you can achieve quite profound results in less than six sessions. And there's a somatic component to it.
So in the whole field of trauma research, you know, possibly with the works of Bessel van der Kolk and, you know, he wrote this iconic book called The Body Keeps The Score. And then, you know, there are people now like Gabor Maté who also talk about trauma.
We know that the problem with trauma is that it gets stuck in a body. And so any kind of modality that has a somatic component to it, but doesn't just rely on the brain and the mind, has more profound and effective results. And so, with EFT, there is the somatic component because we are gently tapping on the key acupressure points of the face and upper body, just with our fingertips, it's so easy to do and so accessible, but it's doing that as well as talking through the issue in a more traditional talk therapy sense, it's both of those things combined that seem to really allow a shifting of any trauma that's stuck in the nervous system in the body, and also helps us to, kind of, rewire the neural pathways in the brain related to our thoughts and beliefs that are very, very stubborn and difficult to shift.
So, again, maybe that's quite a complicated answer. I apologize.

Claudia von Boeselager: No, that makes sense as well. So I'm trying to understand, 'cause I've heard that as well, like the body never forgets or the body keeps the score, which you were mentioning there as well. And that trauma gets stored. And I think people think, oh, I've dealt with it or it doesn't bother me anymore, but sometimes, maybe 20 years later, something could trigger, and that strong emotion might comeback from a past experience. So if I understand correctly, it's a mixture of trauma being stored in the body, but also EFT helps to rewire neural pathways to another modality, like, how do you react to something?
It doesn't bother you as much anymore. You're kind of freeing yourself mentally, but also physically, it sounds like, from emotional trauma.

Mariko Bangerter: Exactly. Exactly. So, for example, when we experience an adverse event, or AKA trauma, or anything that really stresses you out, when something like this is experienced, then there's a whole creation of a set of beliefs that are usually very limiting. A set of thoughts around this, too. So, as an example, it could be, okay, let's say that, you know, you're six years old and you drew a drawing and you showed your teacher and your teacher said that really doesn't look like a person. That's not a very good drawing. Can you try and draw a better person here? From that moment, you might then create the belief that you're not creative. You can't do anything right. You'll never be good at drawing. You're not good enough, you know. And these beliefs are unconscious, we're not usually aware of them at all, but they will stick with us, they're very, very stubborn, throughout life until you resolve or heal that initial trauma. Because until that point, those beliefs make sense. And so this work, using EFT as a technique, is so great at, number one, allowing you to become more aware off the things that are unresolved, that need healing within you, that maybe have been suppressed for so many years or you've slipped them under the rug.
So it allows you to create that awareness, give you the awareness of what needs work, and, number two, it allows you to then rewrite that program to then permanently shift these old, and stubborn, and hindering, beliefs that are not allowing you to progress.

Claudia von Boeselager: You said that sometimes it allows you to find, like, what were these traumas or what were these beliefs, right?
So do clients come to you, not even knowing, kind of, why it is, so you help them basically uncover what the underlying belief is? Is that part of your work as well?

Mariko Bangerter: Yes, 100%. I would say, 50% of the time, clients have a general idea of the type of block they have, and maybe an idea of where it comes from. The other 50% of the time they're unaware.
And then, of the 50% who do have an idea, I would say even then what we uncover in sessions usually is quite surprising for them. They have something quite unexpected. There's something about, you know, the safety that a therapeutic relationship and a therapeutic space provides that allows things to come up from the unconscious mind to the conscious mind.
So, when they're there in session and they feel safe, yeah, they have access to so much more data, so much more information than they would normally. So I've had clients who say, I really don't have any memories under the age of seven, but they turn up in a session and we uncover some memories of really earlier. It's like two years old in the cot, that kind of thing.

Claudia von Boeselager: Wow.
Okay. So, yeah. And even before one human would normally be able to remember things,
Mariko Bangerter: Yeah.

Claudia von Boeselager: That's really incredible.

It would be really fun, maybe later we can try, like, a mini-session. I don't know is that possible, if you ever do mini-sessions? But for listeners, as well, maybe we could try something later?

Mariko Bangerter: Yeah, sure. I'd love to, I'd love to do that. Yeah, we could absolutely do, like, a 5, 10 minute-

Claudia von Boeselager: Okay, great.
So maybe towards the end of our recording, that would be wonderful.
I wonder, what are the particular, or are there particular types of areas that EFT is good at treating? And are there any that it's not suitable for?

Mariko Bangerter: Yeah. Good question. I would say it's good for any kind of mental or emotional block. So any kind of uncomfortable emotion. So whether that is stress, fear, a lack of confidence. Like I said before, you know, phobias, and also any kind of trauma, even severe or complex trauma, is really effectively treated with EFT.
You know, someone who is qualified and good practitioner and has experience in that. Yeah,. So any kind of trauma. And the thing is, I think there's this misconception around trauma in the general public, and I think we always think that trauma has to be big and dramatic, you know, such as a really terrible incident that has happened.
But I would say that even minor issues that have left you feeling like you're unable to cope can be regarded as a trauma, and also needs that same amount of healing work to overcome.
So EFT is really great at trauma. And I would say that's what I mostly help people with. I mostly help people with any kind of anxiety, and self esteem, self-confidence, issues.
So anyone who's struggling with some kind of block in their life, who-

Claudia von Boeselager: Which is pretty much everybody, I don't think I know anyone who's figured it all out.

Mariko Bangerter: Yeah. And then in answer to your question, is there any one that it's not good for or anything that is not good for? I would say I found that with people struggling with things like ADHD, or people struggling with focus and attention. Yeah. I find it to be a little bit trickier to work with, with people like that. However, I think it's still beneficial. It just doesn't work quite as quickly as someone without ADHD.

Claudia von Boeselager: Just a question on that. Is it because of the, more difficulty in focusing, just on say the wording of what you're saying with the NLP, you mentioned you use specific wording around it while tapping is that, is it the lack of attention to being
able to concentrate on that, is it?

Mariko Bangerter: Yeah, for me personally, and again, this might be just a very subjective thing. Maybe other practitioners would disagree with me here, but, for me, I think it wasn't so much that it was about my inability or my difficulty in really honing in on, and narrowing down their thought process, which is quite scattered and, yeah.
And I love challenges and I've been in situations, and they have been a bit challenging. So, you know, and like I said, I still think it can be beneficial, but probably not as streamlined. Yeah.

Claudia von Boeselager: But as you said yourself before, challenges equal growth. So maybe if we speak again in a year you'll be like, I've got it nailed. I know exactly what to do.
Before we jump into your story, which I'm really excited to get to, I wanted to run through a few rapid-fire questions with you, and ask if you have any particular morning routine to set your day up as a success.

Mariko Bangerter: Yeah. So I might fall from grace at this point in the eyes of your listeners, but, to be honest, my day-to-day schedule is so inconsistent that I find it quite difficult to establish a morning routine that I can have every single day.
But I would say one thing that I do on most mornings is I don't eat breakfast. I tend to not be hungry anyway, when I wake up. So it's quite easy to do. So I suppose I am engaging in-

Claudia von Boeselager: Intermittent fasting. Is that by choice or it's just that you just don't feel hungry? Or are you doing it specifically for intermittent fasting health benefits?

Mariko Bangerter: Yeah, I think a bit of both. Yeah. I think time-restricted eating really does feel good for me. I also don't eat very late at night, so I try to eat dinner around 5/6pm, and then I find that I sleep better. And so, I think, yeah, narrowing the window where I'm eating really does resonate with me. I would say the other thing that I do on most mornings is I walk my dog, and we live right next to the section of Epping Forest here in East London where there's, you know, woods and lakes just at my doorstep.
So I take a walk around there. And that's always very grounding, and no matter what the weather is, and there's something about even going out, you know, when it's raining, when it's snowing, when there's ice on the ground, and having that interaction with nature, in which it really does bring you to the present moment, make you very aware of the season that you're in.

Claudia von Boeselager: It's very grounding as well, I guess, right?

Mariko Bangerter: Yeah, exactly, very grounding. And I tried to do something that brings me back into my body. So whether it is a little bit of exercise, I really like HIIT workouts because they're just quick and fast, and they get straight to the point. And then, yeah. And then after that, I definitely, I mean, one thing that is consistent, and it's not just to do with my morning, but this is probably the thing that I recommend to anyone, and I think it's probably the most important thing to do in life, is that when I feel an emotion come up, when I feel I'm stuck with a mood or an emotion that's not optimal, then I address it then and there, or as soon as I can. So if having done all of that in my morning, I feel like for some reason I'm just not in a great mood, then I'll go to the room where I tap. And I just, yeah, I spent a few minutes with myself tapping, and I get to a state where I'm feeling much more energized just by that self-tapping.
And it's because it's like, you know, whatever mood you're in, let's say there is a scale, like a wellbeing scale of the different moods that you could be in a day, let's say at the highest part of the scale could be gratitude, joy, deep trust in yourself, a sense of peace and acceptance. And at the lower end of the scale, there could be things like jealousy, doubt, anger, fear, worry. If you're at the bottom end of that scale, that is almost like, whatever mood you're in colors the lens of the glasses you're wearing through which you're perceiving life that day.
And so everything will be colored by that light and that tone. And just by a few minutes that you can invest in yourself to tap on yourself, to just get higher up on that scale, to feel a bit more accepting, or even higher than that, optimistic, whatever, that will completely, and it does, it completely changes the trajectory of that day, and of your life, right? And your life is just an accumulation of the different days.
And so, you know, it could be that on that day, if you hadn't done the tapping, it could be that, you know, a friend calls you for a favor and you decide not to pick up that phone. It could be that if you did do that self-tapping, and you had more energy to yourself, and you feel better, a friend calls you, asks you for help, and you're delighted to help them.
And just imagine the way in which every interaction with every person transforms as a result of you just investing a little bit of time in yourself. So, you know, this is something, I feel like it's almost like a duty in our self, to proactively manage our mental and emotional states. Otherwise it's just like we go throughout life and we're just bouncing off each other, being triggered by each other, being reactive, you know, because we haven't managed our own base levels of stress and emotions.
So I think it's something that we should be learning at schools. I think it's the most important, fundamental, part of world peace, yeah, you know?

Claudia von Boeselager: Wow, so profound. And I love that, and I totally agree with you. And I like the idea of the glasses, and the way you see the world, and it totally resonates with me as well. And it would be really cool if you have a little few hacks, or what we could do maybe later on in the conversation, just to really help, to set up your day as a success, because a lot of my listeners love morning routines, and winning the day. So that would be really interesting to discuss. Thank you for sharing.
Thinking of the word "successful", Mariko, who is the first person who comes to mind and why?
Okay. Just ,simply, the person that came into my mind, it's not like I spend lots of time thinking about him, was, just Tony Robbins came to mind. He just had a little cameo in my mind, and I acknowledged his face.

Mariko Bangerter: But with some of the stories that I've heard from him, you know, what I find very inspiring is the amount of times that he's gained it all, millions, and then lost it all, and gained it all again, and lost it all. And this idea of being at peace with the curve balls that life throws at you, and just not giving up. And there are so many of his little anecdotes that I find very, very moving and profound.
But I don't define success as anything material, really. I truly feel that success is your ability to navigate life in a way that it doesn't pass you by. So your ability to practice being as present, and as mindful, as possible. To be able to, kind of, go with the flow of life, as opposed to swimming against the current. And the ability, and the adaptability, to see any experience or any challenge, you know, as we talked about before, that comes your way, as a gift, almost with the question: "If there were a reason that this experience was coming to me now, what would that reason be?" Like, if this experience were really try to teach me something, what could I learn from this?
You know, reframing these situations, and I think that is really what success is because so many people chase the wrong things, and have these goals and desires, thinking it's going to lead to happiness. But happiness is really the ability to sit with the present moment, and feel gratitude with everything that you have right now this second, because anything else is just a projection. It's an illusion, it's not there yet the future. And I think that is very difficult to do. To be mindful and to be present.

Claudia von Boeselager: Wise words, and I totally agree. And that's actually something I have as part of my goal-setting is to really recalibrate, too, 'cause, as a, sort of, very focused on future and planning and organizing, to actually recalibrate and bring it back to be centered. And to be at the joy of the present moment. And so I think that, you know, those that are able to achieve, and I don't think there's many people who can do that continuously, maybe Eckhart Tolle, or people who've had, sort of, these awakening experiences. But even just experiencing that several times a day.
So in such wise words, thank you for sharing that.
 Mariko, over the last five years, has there been any new belief, or behavior, or habit, that's most improved your life?

Mariko Bangerter: I would say what's distilled over the last five years, and it's something that, I had hints of it a while back, but it's now got to the point where I'm not surprised by it, I, I fully, fully believe in this, the power of our unconscious desires is something that nothing can trump. So, and I don't mean this just in the sense of manifestation, or manifesting what you really desire and things, although, you know, this is an area that I love working with and I love helping people attain, but it's more, it's kind of like this idea of be careful what you wish for, but really be careful because, I'll give you an example.
And I noticed this happening a lot, but it seems to be happening a lot more. It's where, for example, let's say two weeks ago, I was going through a period of extreme fatigue. I hadn't been sleeping very well. And so it was piling up, and I was really fatigued. And I was supposed to take a break. I had scheduled a little trip away, but it got canceled. And so I think I was, sort of, on the road to burnout.
And then I still had some work scheduled in anyway. And I totally could have done it. Most of my days were blocked out for this trip I was supposed to take, so the few bits of work that I had, the sessions that I hadn't so forth, I could have done. But it's true that I was a little bit tired. And, I kid you not, every single client that I was supposed to have a session with that week canceled on me.

Claudia von Boeselager: Wow.

Mariko Bangerter: You know, and this-

Claudia von Boeselager: This was not meant to be. Wow.

Mariko Bangerter: Yeah, and just, the coincidence of that, or the synchronicity, everyone just: "Oh, could we do it next week instead? Oh, do you mind if I, I'm so sorry, I'm not feeling well."
And so it was like, it must've been more of an unconscious desire for me to really just take time out, has somehow materialized in all my work being cancelled, right?
And I think, and nowadays I find it easier to live life this way. I truly trust what comes. I truly do. Even if it seems at first really disappointing, I just trust it's for the best. Yeah.
 How liberating!
Yeah. It really is. It just takes the pressure off, you know. So yeah. I think I really have this deep, deep trust now in life and the way things go.

Claudia von Boeselager: Yeah. And I wonder just what with trust piece, do you think that anyone can just be like, okay, I'll just trust and see what unfolds? Or do you think it's because you're quite attuned and you've done so much work on yourself that you now can have that trust, I wonder?

Mariko Bangerter: Yeah. Well, I think, of course, doing this self-development work, and always, kind of, facing your fears head on, as opposed to trying to ignore them, or deny them, I think that definitely builds emotional resilience. I think my teen years, and my 20s, were so turbulent, and chaotic, you know, from being completely, like, having no money at all, like, and having to change careers like two, three times, not knowing what direction I was going to go in, all these different things. It, kind of, I think that really does build your resilience, and the muscles, that allow you to overcome most obstacles. And, I guess, 'cause, you know, I've been through all of that and it just, it always turns out okay. And so I think it's easier to then have that trust.

Claudia von Boeselager: Yeah, exactly. By putting yourself out there, by trying, and realizing, you know, put yourself in the worst-case scenario and realize, you know, is it really that bad?
Is it horrendous to wear the same clothes for a whole week? I mean, I've never tried it, but I know people who have, and they're like, you know, wear jeans and a t-shirt, you know, might be a bit smelly, but it's not the end of the world. So yeah. It's putting yourself out there, and then that builds that trust and that confidence, I guess as well.

Mariko Bangerter: Yeah. Yeah.

Claudia von Boeselager: I'd love to change gears a bit, and talk a bit more about your work, and also your incredible journey that brought you down this path to EFT, becoming a practitioner, and setting up mindsetting. Can you tell us a little bit about that journey, and how that, past experiences from growing up, how that brought you to where you are now?

Mariko Bangerter: I come from two different backgrounds. So my father is Swiss-French, my mother is Japanese, and they're both ex-pats. So we moved around a lot, growing up. I was born in Singapore and then we moved to this tiny village in Yorkshire.

Claudia von Boeselager: That must've been a culture shock!

Mariko Bangerter: It was. It really was. Going from Singapore to the grim grayness of York was such a culture shock.
I was 5, 6, at the time. I think my mother had it hard. And I remember her saying that, you know, she fell into, like, a year-long depression from the culture shock ,and the climate shock, and, yeah, and so I think this kind of upbringing of moving from place to place.
And also, you know, like, when I was in York, we were in this tiny village. I was the only mixed race person there. And, you know, it was like, we were so different, my brother and I, and my parents, to everyone, in terms of what we would eat, you know, my mother would make Japanese food with seaweed and sour plums and blah, blah, blah, and, but also the cultural differences, right?
Our upbringing, this kind of Japanese sensitivity to, and, kind of, like humbleness or even submissiveness, let's say. So it wasn't just the way I looked that was different, but also very much who I was. And then I think not having our extended family there, I felt quite isolated. And I think, to be honest with you, like my childhood and teen years were pretty, they weren't great.
They were really, they were really hard. And I felt lonely for most of that time. And I think this really relates to your question because, I guess I learned to sit with and manage my emotions alone a lot. Even as a kid, you know, I spent a lot of time in my room reading, or writing in my journal.
My parents gave me a diary when I was, I think, seven years old. It was the first diary I had, and, since that point, I always had diaries, and I really, it was so therapeutic for me. And the other thing is that, perhaps I always knew this, but I felt very different from people also internally. And I think that's to do with being a hyper-sensitive individual. I would really take things to heart.
I just felt things on a very deep level. And so I think as a child, I learned that nobody really understood my emotions very well. They didn't even see that I was suffering when I was. I'm talking about my parents here, and friends, and things. So again, like, I think I learned to navigate my own emotional landscape, sit with it, understand it.
And so, as a teenager, well, we moved to Japan, and again, I had a very, very tumultuous adolescence with extreme social anxiety, depression, and I again, felt very, very isolated. Didn't really have many friends. I felt very different from my peers of that age group. And, you know, having moved from England to this tiny international school, very sheltered existence, in Yokohama, I was, kind of, a bit more wayward than everyone there. So again, like, I didn't fit in.
Yeah. It was, it was a really difficult time. I didn't, I couldn't imagine life beyond school years, and I also didn't believe, or I didn't feel I had the strength to survive, really. I just, kind of, wanted to end it all. And-

Claudia von Boeselager: I'm so sorry.

Mariko Bangerter: Yeah, it was horrendous. And, I mean, this is maybe a little bit funny, but, so at this point as well, I had severe, severe social anxiety, to the point where, like, it's crazy to imagine this now, but, you know, I remember when a kid would sit next to me, a classmate would sit next to me, on my desk, we would share these desks, and I would be so nervous and so shy of this proximity that my hands, on the desk, there'd be pools of sweat from the palms of my hands, and that would then feed into my anxiety. You know, I'd be like: "Oh my God, can they see I'm a freak?", and, you know.
It's just such an-

Claudia von Boeselager: Wow. That downward cycle. Yeah.

Mariko Bangerter: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And luckily I think, yeah, by the age of 16, 17, I, kind of, got out of that. And there were also a couple of teachers that I had that I am so grateful to, to this day, who were there for me, and saw that I was depressed, and just such beautiful teachers who really, kind of, opened up my heart and taught me, I think, how to love.
So, yeah. So that's a shout out to Mr. Hunter, Charles Hunter, who had that effect and, you know, it'd be things like, I remember this one beautiful moment in which I was sitting alone on the stairs at lunchtime, and depressed. I was probably about 14 at the time. And he came and sat beside me and he told me this little story.
He said: "You know, Mariko, when I was a kid, I remember this one day I was at school and my teacher didn't seem very happy. So I went to the field and picked some flowers and I put them on her desk, and I got back from lunch and I saw that she was smiling, and I made her day better. And that made me feel even better too."
And he just told me this little story. And I, when I got back from my lunch, there were some flowers stuck to my locker with some tape that he had left and, you know-

Claudia von Boeselager: That's so touching.

Mariko Bangerter: Yeah. And just, just incredible, incredible human being.
In answer to your question, I would say it was ,that it was this ability to be comfortable and delve into my emotional landscape to try to understand why I was feeling the way I was.
And I developed this practice as a teenager, actually, when I wasn't feeling very well, to replay my day, retrace my steps, to understand the trigger, like the key point, which changed my mood. And so this identifying of that, alone, gave me such relief. Because it was like something unconscious was brought to the fore, to the conscious mind. And just that alone already shifted my mood.
And so I think this is why this work now that I do resonates so much, and it did from the beginning, was, I love this kind of emotional detective work. Yeah.

Claudia von Boeselager: So now you do it at a much larger scale.
And how did it go from that, sort of, teenage years to where you are now?

Mariko Bangerter: At the age of 18, I left Japan, I left home, and I, I really wanted to spend a year in Switzerland. At this point I, I was really into the arts, so I, I wanted to go into filmmaking, but I spent that year, sort of, painting and developing my painting skills, and creating a portfolio.
I was very much into expression, so the arts, and I thought film would be the best way of fully expressing one's idea. And so, at the age of 19/20, I then, after Switzerland, came to London, and I've been here ever since. So I've been here, what, 17 years.
So, yeah, I was going down this trajectory. I went to art school here and I, then, I was then on route to trying to establish myself in the film industry.
But then I got my heart terribly broken in the industry because I created this one music video for this up-and-coming band. I did it all myself. I filmed it, edited it. And I got the okay from the plugger MTV2 to air this video that I had worked on for six months, I was 21 at the time. And so I was super excited and I thought this might be my big break.
And then, just before it was going to air, the lead singer of the band decided to pull that video, and didn't want to release it. And so that was, like, at the end of this whole year of me really trying to create a showreel. So, at that point I was like, okay, I really need to find a real job that's in a more stable industry.
And that's when, probably as a result of, I don't know, being a third-generation Swiss, kind of, working in the chocolate fields. My dad also did that. And my grandfather also did that. And, you know, maybe there's chocolate running in my veins. But I then started working in this artisan chocolate shop in West London. Then that set me up on this trajectory of becoming a pastry chef for 10 years. So that's what I did in my 20s.
And then what happened was, at the end of, my, kind of, yeah, stint working as a chef, especially working as a pastry chef when you're surrounded by sugar, surrounded by these really incredibly comforting foods that don't make you feel great.

Claudia von Boeselager: We know what sugar does, exactly.

Mariko Bangerter: Right. And having this really adrenaline-rich job of cheffing, which is so physically and mentally exhausting, I had a breakdown near the end of my 20s, at the age of 29. It was not only the work that I just, I was never so, really passionate about. It's, kind of, like I fell into it, and I just carried on.
At the time I was in this relationship, it was a nine-month, extremely intense, quickly evolving, relationship, that started out as a holiday romance, but ended as a, an extremely abusive relationship.

Claudia von Boeselager: I'm so sorry.

Mariko Bangerter: It was, yeah, these two things that coupled that, I fell apart and I, I broke down, and I hit rock bottom. This was at the age of 29. And so I was forced to just take a break.
I couldn't function at work, so I had to leave it. And I also managed to take a break and just, I put everything, all my stuff, in storage without knowing what I was going to do, but I just knew I needed to extricate myself from this relationship, and London. And so I went to visit a very close friend of mine for two, three months, who happened to be living in the Middle East at the time.
And I'm sorry if I'm rambling so much, but

Claudia von Boeselager: No, not at all. I love it. So please, no, feel completely at ease. Continue.

Mariko Bangerter: So I realize now that that was a period in which I was experiencing post-traumatic stress, as a result of this nine-month. Very, very, very intensive, psychologically abusive, relationship.
And I couldn't smile, I couldn't laugh. I was visiting my friends, but I just, I was just like an empty shell, with flashbacks, with nightmares, with severe anxiety. Again, it's like, I was scared to go out anywhere alone. I just didn't have any confidence in myself. No self-esteem.
And being there in Qatar for three months, I didn't know anybody. And also as a result of this relationship, I had become very isolated from the friends that I had before. So I was very alone again. I was forced to just sit with my pain, without any distraction, because there was no one to distract me. I was mostly just staying at home alone at my friend's beautiful place while he was working, just with my own thoughts and with my own pain. And it was like what some might call, you know, a dark night of the soul.
And through that experience of having no distraction, but just sitting with my pain, I, one day spontaneously, started to focus on my breath because that was the only thing I could think to do that would just ease my pain a little bit.
So I started focusing on my breathing and, you know, I hadn't meditated really before. I didn't know much about meditation, honestly, and I hadn't really done much yoga or anything. So I'm just focusing on my breath, and I managed to really, really focus at this time. Then I
had this experience in which I felt these waves of energy throughout my whole body a bit like I was being electrocuted by, like, a light current. It wasn't necessarily unpleasant, but I had no idea what was going on and what I was experiencing. And, you know, I felt like I was convulsing, but I opened my eyes, and my body was still, but I just felt these waves and waves and waves of sensation, as if I was just vibrating. And it all accumulated in my heart.
And then I, kind of, almost thought, am I having a heart attack or something? I just wasn't sure. But I opened my eyes. I stopped this, kind of, meditative state that I was in. And then that kind of opened up my world, and it completely transformed my worldview. I did research and I understood that, it sounded like I had a Kundalini awakening is what they call it in India, which tends to happen as a result of severe trauma. Like that's one of the pathways, or it could be as a result of Kundalini yoga practices or, you know, different practices like that. Yeah. It sounded like I had a Kundalini awakening.
And from that point, I must say that, yeah, I had more and more, kind of, interesting supernatural paranormal experiences start happening.
And it was this really intensive period, of about one or two years, of lots of pre-cognitive dreams, of really acute intuition, of deep healing, happening within my dreams. It was almost like I was undergoing this almost like a shamanic, or some kind of healing retreat that I didn't know I'd signed up for, that resulted in all these interesting experiences.
And it totally changed my life, and it changed my worldview, to incorporate energy, because I understood that what I was feeling, with these vibrations, was they were energetic. They weren't physical, they were non-physical. So I, yeah, it just totally changed my life. And as a result of that experience, that opened the gateway to my deep, deep, deep healing journey.
And then I started learning and training in vipassana meditation. So I went on a couple of 10-day silent meditation retreats that were incredibly challenging and, you know, meditating from 4:30am 'til, like, 9:30pm. Again, it's that whole facing yourself, sitting with your pain, sitting with what is.
That's also when I was introduced to EFT tapping. And, at first, I was introduced to it by my friend, Boris, who just showed me in the park, how to tap on myself. And I was like: "What are we doing? This feels so random. I don't even understand what we're doing." And it's like, I didn't have the larger context, or the framework right? So I didn't understand,.
But I then went into a session with a practitioner, and yeah, and it was only a few years later that I truly understood the power of that session, and what it did to my mindset. Because I remember going into that session, you know, of course, knowing that the abusive relationship I was in was terrible, and that I've got to just forget about it. He's not the person for me. It was unhealthy. This is months, you know, months after the breakup. But I went into that session, knowing those things consciously, but still feeling, like, hooked. Still feeling like: "Oh, but we are meant to be together."
So, you know, this addictive quality of that relationship was still there. And I walked out of that session feeling like, no, that's not the one for me, a healthy and loving relationship does exist. It is possible. And I have no idea what's around the corner. Because, you know, going into that EFT session, I just did not believe healthy, loving relationships existed. I just thought that was Hollywood BS. And I just thought, no, all relationships are inherently unhealthy. They just are. And so that 180 degree shift in my mindset from that one 60 minute sessions.
And it just, again, because the modality is so, it's deceptively simple, or it looks deceptively simple, it's working on many different layers, and it's working on many different levels. And so to the ignorant eye, it does look, kind of, bizarre and also simple. But it's really, I think it's working on such intricate levels.
And so I walked out of the session, kind of, taking for granted my complete mindset shift. And it's only, like, years later that I saw how truly it, kind of, it really-

Claudia von Boeselager: Shifted.

Mariko Bangerter: Yeah. Realigned

Claudia von Boeselager: Yeah.

Mariko Bangerter: My life, actually.

Claudia von Boeselager: Yeah. Oh, incredible. What a beautiful, amazing story. And thank you so much for being so raw, and sharing that as well, Mariko. Really appreciate that.
And it's so interesting, kind of, what life throws up at you. And, as Steve Jobs says, connecting the dots, it's only when you look back at these different experiences that they actually make sense. Like, oh, I see why that happens, brought me to this, and then I do this now. And how wonderful that you're using your experience in day-to-day work, and actually helping other people. So in being of service of others, again, Joseph Campbell's hero's journey, right? That's closing the loop and the circle.
And I had the pleasure of experiencing a session with you the other day, so thank you again for that. It was so profound that, I've heard of EFT, and I believe in these things and I, sort of, wasn't sure what to think going into it. But it was unbelievable, the profound impact, not only of feeling in this very Zen ultra-calm state, and I mean, I've done breathwork workshops and, you know, obviously yoga, and meditation, and things like that as well, but it was just a whole different experience. But what was incredible was the sort of mental clarity, ability to focus, it was so profound. And it carried on for a long, long time afterwards, aswell. And I'd love, for my listeners, just if you could talk about, you know, what typically is a first tapping session? What does it look like? And what are the different processes and steps that you would bring clients through?

Mariko Bangerter: Yeah. Well, typically, with the packages that I offer, there's 3, 6, and 12-week-long. So the first session is really about getting to learn a bit about the person in front of me. And, prior to the session, there's this intake form. So there's quite a few questions that are asked. So I already have a general idea, but the first session, I would say the first part of it, is really spent just talking, for me to get a bit of a mind map of the issues, the presenting problems, and what the client really wants to get out of it. And just trying to understand the larger context for that, for the problems. Where they might come from, and the scope.
And then, and then it's such an intuitive process that I can't say there's a blueprint for every first session, of course. Also, if it's a single session, which, you know, I don't do too often, I do if there is a very acute and specific issue. Like a fear of a future event, or a phobia, or grief also, bereavement is something that I tend to be able to work on in one session. But, if it is a single session, then it's quite different, I can, I can get straight to the point. And I'd like to just, kind of, throw everything at that session.
But if it's part of a longer program, then I'm more interested in finding the different areas that we need to work on, and then maybe going to each of those areas in more depth. So in more depth, what that would mean is, to identify if there are any unresolved memories from the past that is creating a present-day problem or block.
I would then work on, if there's quite a few of these unresolved issues from the past, then I'd work on them more generally. And then narrow them down and get more specific.
So the session would look like my introducing the client on the key acupressure points that we would be working on. It's literally me tapping on those points on myself and the client copying me and tapping along.
So we're both, self-tapping, we're both tapping with our fingertips on these acupressure points of the upper face and body, whilst talking. And so what this does is, the tapping part seems to halt, or interrupt, the body's stress response. It seems to be working on the limbic system of the brain that decides whether something is stressful or not, but it seems to interrupt that whole response from happening. And in that interruption, we are able to then talk about things that normally would trigger a stress response, or fear, sadness, any uncomfortable emotion. We're able to, kind of, talk about the issue without those emotions overwhelming. Plus there's this very mindful component to it too, because we're tapping and we're talking as well about the sensations present in our body now.
So I'll be asking the client, okay, what's coming up for you right now? What are you feeling? And it might be that, you know, as we're talking about their recent divorce or the recent argument they had with their ex-husband, then, you know, they're noticing all of this tension in the chest. They're noticing some tightness in the throat. They're noticing heat on their face.

And we're noticing these sensations as we're tapping. We're also noticing the emotions that come up as we're tapping. But, whilst we tap, because we're sitting with, and observing, and acknowledging, what is coming up, those sensations, and those emotions, just naturally by default of this practice, subside. That's what happens.
And it's like, and I think this is the key to any kind of mindfulness practices that, you know, mindfulness meditators in Vipassana know this, is that, when you sit with something, whether it's a pain, a very physical symptom, you sit with it and you don't react to it, when you don't judge it, you don't try to push it away, it will naturally go away on its own. And it's the same with any emotion. But most times we're so quick to suppress it or deny it, or we binge watch Netflix, or we stuff our mouths-

Claudia von Boeselager: Yeah.

Mariko Bangerter: With junk food to ignore the emotion that we're feeling. But that is, that is how it just perpetuates forever. So the way to truly release and shift, or let go of, an emotion that feels stuck, is to sit with it, and feel it mindfully. And the tapping process allows us to do that in a gentle way, that's not overwhelming. That's not re-triggering.
And there are so many, sort of, protocols and techniques that we use that we can work on even severe trauma, from this gentle, distant angle, you know, because the number one premise is to not retraumatize. Yeah.

Claudia von Boeselager: It's really incredible. I think a lot of people experience there's, maybe they're going into a stressful situation, be it presenting to the board of their company, to meeting a difficult boss or colleague, to a personal situation, or just feeling generally stressed. Maybe we could go through together a mini version of what one could do in this case. Then you can maybe talk through what needs to be tapped and maybe even why.

Mariko Bangerter: So, yeah, I'll just talk about the points first to introduce the points that we work with.
So the first one that we tend to work with is on the under side of our hand.

Claudia von Boeselager: Like between the knuckle and the wrist.

Mariko Bangerter: Yes. Yes.

Claudia von Boeselager: The, sort of, meaty part of the back of the hand.

Mariko Bangerter: Exactly. On the back of the hand. So all we're doing, simply, is just using the tips of your fingers to tap on the back side of the other hand.

Claudia von Boeselager: And do you have to tap hard or soft or does that matter?

Mariko Bangerter: I would say it doesn't really matter. It doesn't have to be hard. It really doesn't have to be hard.
And you're just tapping, just in no order, no, no specific pattern. Just, yeah, tapping lightly.
So that's the first point. And this is bilateral, so you can use the left hand or the right hand, whatever works for you.

Claudia von Boeselager: When you do one, you just stick to one, is it, or do you, should you swap around? Or just stick to one hand?

Mariko Bangerter: I would say that it's completely intuitive. So whatever feels comfortable to you. Yeah.
So you're just tapping there on the side of your hand, underneath the knuckle of your pinky finger, of your little finger. And this is usually the point at which we set up the tapping round. And, by that, what I mean is that we introduce a statement that includes the issue you're struggling with, and an affirmation at the end. So that's the set-up statement. The set-up statement is the issue you're, you're working with, and an affirmation. Yeah.
 So we'll go to that next. I'm just going to go to the next point now. And the next point is at the top of the head. In the center of the crown. So again, just using-

Claudia von Boeselager: The middle of the middle?

Mariko Bangerter: Yes, exactly.
So using either your right or left hand, whichever feels comfortable, just lightly tap, with a few fingers, at the center of your crown.

Claudia von Boeselager: So these are Meridian points. These are particular Meridian points that are the most effective, or how come these are the points that are selected?

Mariko Bangerter: Yeah. So these are the endpoints of Meridian channels. A lot of them pass through the entire body. And there are also more than these basic ones. I'm just going through the basic ones. And why they're selected, well, it seems as though the different points do either work directly with specific organs and allow us to release specific emotions. I have a map later that I can talk you through, that talk about the different points and, sort of, what emotions they can help with.

Claudia von Boeselager: Okay.

Mariko Bangerter: But, specifically, the next point we're going to go to, for example, is one of these points, but well, for the next point, it would be the two points of the base of each eyebrow, but I find it easier, and my teacher, Peter Donn, he would just put all four fingers together, like, and you could just span that bridge between the two eyebrows. Yeah. Also tapping on the beginning part, the base of each eyebrow.

Claudia von Boeselager: Okay.

Mariko Bangerter: So these points, especially, around the eyes are really effective at reducing stress and panic. They're quite soothing.
And perhaps there's also something to do with when we were babies, and being touched around the face, being touched around forehead is also incredibly soothing. So just stroking your forehead up and down is an incredibly soothing, grounding, centering, thing. So when you're sad, when you're upset or stressed, even just this, activating the parasympathetic nervous system.
And then the next point after the middle of your eyebrows is on the outside of your eye. On the side-

Claudia von Boeselager: So it's close to the eye socket or more on the cheekbone?

Mariko Bangerter: Just literally on the outer edge of your eye.

Claudia von Boeselager: Okay, so, the bone area.

Mariko Bangerter: Yes, exactly. On the bone area. Exactly.

Claudia von Boeselager: Yeah.

Mariko Bangerter: And then the next point after that is under each eye. On the eye socket bone.

Claudia von Boeselager: Okay.
And you just do one hand or you do both, or you can do either?

Mariko Bangerter: You can do both on all of these points on the face for sure. Or if you don't want to, you can just do one. One does work just as effectively.

Claudia von Boeselager: Okay.

Mariko Bangerter: And then the next point after under the eye is under the nose. And then the next point after that is on the chin.
And then the collarbone. So here you can tap all around the collarbone, like, on and through the collarbone, on either side.

Claudia von Boeselager: So "through" you mean, or on, or, or below? Or how do you mean "through"? Yeah, so kind of like, I guess, slightly below the collarbone, but also on top of.
On top of. And these are the Meridian ends, you said. So these are basic-

Mariko Bangerter: Yeah. And I would, I would say that these ones here, and I, I wish I had an acupuncturist right here right now, who could be more specific about it, but I think here it's more that there's so many organs around here, right? There's the heart, the lungs, and then lower, below the digestive organs, and so forth. So I think also it's about these vibrations that you are, kind of, sending out to multiple different meridians, and multiple different organs.
We can't forget that, you know, the endpoints of meridians are also on the tips of your fingers.
Yeah.
When we are tapping, it's almost like we're sending this tiny electrical impulse to our body. And then the final point that we're going to use will be on the side of your ribs, a couple of inches under your armpit.

Claudia von Boeselager: Do you go up and down or you just stay in the same spot-

Mariko Bangerter: I just stay in the same place.

Claudia von Boeselager: Okay.

Mariko Bangerter: So for women, it might be, kind of, on the bra strap. For men, yeah, like I said, it's like two, three inches below your armpit.
Those are the points that we would just be tapping through as we're talking. And if you skip a point by accident, it doesn't matter. If you feel drawn to tapping on one specific point for a longer time, completely do that, you know, this is an intuitive process, and it's important to trust your intuition on this.

Claudia von Boeselager: Okay.

Mariko Bangerter: Right, so you said you would like me to maybe guide a really quick mini tapping session to deal with the stress of a future event or something? Maybe the stress of an upcoming-

Claudia von Boeselager: Yeah. I'm trying to think of something general that would, you know, most people could relate to, maybe even just feeling stressed and, like, overwhelmed what's happening or, you know, a certain event, or a difficult person, be it a colleague or maybe boss or, you know, having to present.
So maybe somewhere where there's anxiety or stress from overwhelm, or too much work. I don't know.

Mariko Bangerter: Yeah. Perfect. Yeah. Okay. So yeah, let's do that.
So this will be really for, yeah, stress and overwhelm. And just to try and shift your mindset a little bit. I mean, that's why I called my business Mindsetting because we are trying to change the mindset, so, okay.
So if you can just take a comfortable seat, and start tapping on the side of your hand. Again, that whole point between the lowest knuckle of your pinky finger, and your wrist. So just the side of your hand, just start tapping on there.
With these affirmations that I'm going to say, I'm going to leave a gap and I'd love for you to just repeat after me, and, for anyone in the audience as well, if you'd like to change the words a little bit, because they don't resonate with you, please feel free to do that.
Okay. So first, what I'd like you to do is identify, out of 10, the amount or the level of stress that you're feeling right now. Out of 10, 10 being the maximum.

Claudia von Boeselager: Well, I'm enjoying, very much, our conversation. So I'd say it's probably more like a 1, but I'll imagine a situation where I'm feeling stressed. So let's say it's a 7 or something like that.

Mariko Bangerter: Right, so you could say it's a 7. The other thing that you could do is imagine some kind of event in your future that would stress you out.

Claudia von Boeselager: I see.

Mariko Bangerter: And then you can label, how stressed do you feel about this future event, out of 10.

Claudia von Boeselager: Okay, so let's say 7,

Mariko Bangerter: 7, perfect. Okay. So this is just good to do for us to understand objectively, you know, if, if-

Claudia von Boeselager: Quantify.

Mariko Bangerter: Using, right.

Claudia von Boeselager: Yeah, improvement.

Mariko Bangerter: Okay. So even though I'm feeling this stress right now-

Claudia von Boeselager: Even though I'm feeling this stress right now-

Mariko Bangerter: And I feel this tension in my body-

Claudia von Boeselager: And I feel this tension in my body-

Mariko Bangerter: Maybe I can choose to accept myself and my feelings anyway.

Claudia von Boeselager: Maybe I can choose to accept my feelings-

Mariko Bangerter: And myself anyway.

Claudia von Boeselager: And myself anyway.

Mariko Bangerter: Yeah. Just take a deep breath.
Okay. And we're going to now start tapping on the top of your head, at the crown.

Claudia von Boeselager: Okay.

Mariko Bangerter: So all of this stress, I'm feeling-

Claudia von Boeselager: All of the stress that I'm feeling-

Mariko Bangerter: And tap on the middle of your eyebrows.
I'm allowing myself to acknowledge it right now.

Claudia von Boeselager: I'm allowing myself to acknowledge it right now.

Mariko Bangerter: Tap on the side of your eye.
I'm also allowing myself to notice it in my body right now.

Claudia von Boeselager: I'm also allowing myself to notice it in my body right now.

Mariko Bangerter: Start tapping under your eye. And just now, just take a minute to notice where any of that stress or tension may be felt in your body.
So for you Claudia, you're thinking about a future event that stresses you out a little bit. For anyone else in the audience, it might just be working on your present feelings of stress, so just, if you can describe out loud how the stress feels in your body.

Claudia von Boeselager: So I typically feel a stress in the chest, sort of a tightening of the chest area.

Mariko Bangerter: Okay. So start tapping under your nose. We're just gonna acknowledge that in a statement.
This tightness that I feel in my chest-

Claudia von Boeselager: this tightness that I feel in my chest-

Mariko Bangerter: And tap on your chin,
All this tightness in my chest-

Claudia von Boeselager: All this tightness in my chest-

Mariko Bangerter: Tap on your collarbone.
I'm noticing it now, without any judgment.

Claudia von Boeselager: I'm noticing it now, without any judgment.

Mariko Bangerter: On the side of your ribs.
All of this stress that I'm feeling-

Claudia von Boeselager: All of this stress that I'm feeling-

Mariko Bangerter: All of this fear that I'm feeling-

Claudia von Boeselager: All of this fear that I'm feeling-

Mariko Bangerter: And tap on the crown of your head.
It's okay for me to feel it right now.

Claudia von Boeselager: It's okay for me to feel it right now.

Mariko Bangerter: And tap on the middle of your eyebrows.
 All of my feelings and sensations are okay.

Claudia von Boeselager: All of my feelings and sensations are okay.

Mariko Bangerter: Tap on the side of your eye.

And maybe I can accept myself anyway.
Claudia von Boeselager: And maybe I can accept myself anyway.

Mariko Bangerter: Under the eye.
Maybe I can accept myself and all of these feelings.

Claudia von Boeselager: Maybe I can accept myself and all of these feelings

Mariko Bangerter: Under the nose.
And even though it's okay for me to feel this-

Claudia von Boeselager: And even though it's okay for me to feel this-

Mariko Bangerter: On the chin.
I wonder if it's possible for me to let this go.

Claudia von Boeselager: I wonder if it's possible for me to let this go.

Mariko Bangerter: The collarbone.
All this tension in my chest-

Claudia von Boeselager: All of this tension in my chest-

Mariko Bangerter: Side of the ribs.
All this tension in my body,

Claudia von Boeselager: All this tension in my body.
Top of the head.

Mariko Bangerter: All this fear that I'm carrying-

Claudia von Boeselager: All of this fear that I'm carrying-

Mariko Bangerter: Middle of the eyebrows.
I wonder if it's possible for me to let this go.

Claudia von Boeselager: I wonder if it's possible for me to let this go.

Mariko Bangerter: Side of the eyes.
Because right now I'm doing this tapping-

Claudia von Boeselager: because right now I'm doing this tapping-

Mariko Bangerter: Under the eyes.
And right now maybe I can allow myself to be fully present.

Claudia von Boeselager: And maybe right now I can allow myself to be fully present

Mariko Bangerter: Under the nose.
So I wonder if it's possible to let go of this tension.

Claudia von Boeselager: So I wonder if it's possible to let go of this tension.

Mariko Bangerter: Chin.
I wonder if it's possible to let go of this fear.

Claudia von Boeselager: I wonder if it's possible to let go of this fear.

Mariko Bangerter: Collarbone.
I wonder if I could be open to a new perspective on this.

Claudia von Boeselager: I wonder if I could be open to a new perspective on this.

Mariko Bangerter: Side of the ribs.
Maybe I could have a whole new perspective on my situation.

Claudia von Boeselager: Maybe I can have a whole new perspective on my situation.

Mariko Bangerter: Top of the head.
I'm open to a whole new feeling in my body.
Claudia von Boeselager: I'm open to a whole new feeling in my body.

Mariko Bangerter: Middle of the eyebrows.
And even though I'm still feeling some stress and tension.

Claudia von Boeselager: Even though I'm still feeling some stress and tension.

Mariko Bangerter: Outside the eyes.
I'm open to the possibility of feeling lighter and more centered.

Claudia von Boeselager: I'm open to the possibility of feeling more lighter and more centered.

Mariko Bangerter: Under the eyes.
I'm open to the possibility of tuning into infinite solutions.

Claudia von Boeselager: I'm open to the possibility of tuning into infinite, infinite solutions.

Mariko Bangerter: But maybe I'm still feeling a little bit of fear.

Claudia von Boeselager: But maybe I'm still feeling a little bit of fear.

Mariko Bangerter: Chin.
And that's okay.

Claudia von Boeselager: And that's okay.

Mariko Bangerter: Collarbone. I choose to accept myself, anyway.

Claudia von Boeselager: I choose to accept myself, anyway.

Mariko Bangerter: Side of the ribs.
But I'm open to the possibility of feeling something else.

Claudia von Boeselager: But I'm open to the possibility of feeling something else.

Mariko Bangerter: Top of the head.
I'm open to the possibility of feeling more empowered

Claudia von Boeselager: I'm open to the possibility of feeling more empowered.

Mariko Bangerter: Middle of the eyebrows.
I'm open to the possibility of attracting solutions my way.

Claudia von Boeselager: I'm open to the possibility of attracting solutions my way.

Mariko Bangerter: Outside the eyes.
Maybe there are solutions to this situation.

Claudia von Boeselager: Maybe there are solutions to the situation.

Mariko Bangerter: Under the eye.

Claudia von Boeselager: Maybe there are always solutions.
Maybe there are always solutions.

Mariko Bangerter: Under the nose.
Maybe I can get through this with confidence and ease.

Claudia von Boeselager: Maybe I can get through this with confidence and ease.

Mariko Bangerter: Chin.
Maybe it's possible.

Claudia von Boeselager: Maybe it's possible.

Mariko Bangerter: Collarbone.
Or maybe it's not possible.

Claudia von Boeselager: Or maybe it's not possible.

Mariko Bangerter: And that's okay too.

Claudia von Boeselager: And that's okay too.

Mariko Bangerter: Side of the ribs.
But I'm open to the possibility.

Claudia von Boeselager: But I'm open to the possibility.

Mariko Bangerter: Top of the head.
Of feeling differently about this.

Claudia von Boeselager: Of feeling differently about this.

Mariko Bangerter: Middle of the eyebrows.
I'm open to the possibility of a whole new feeling.

Claudia von Boeselager: I'm open to the possibility of a whole new feeling.

Mariko Bangerter: Outside the eyes.
I'm open to the possibility of knowing that I'm powerful.

Claudia von Boeselager: I'm open to the possibility of knowing that I'm powerful.

Mariko Bangerter: Under the eyes.
I'm open to the possibility of knowing that I have agency.

Claudia von Boeselager: I'm open to the possibility of knowing I have agency.

Mariko Bangerter: Under the nose.
I'm open to the possibility of connecting to infinite solutions.

Claudia von Boeselager: I'm open to the possibility of connecting to infinite solutions.

Mariko Bangerter: Chin.
Long after this session ends.

Claudia von Boeselager: Long after this session ends.

Mariko Bangerter: Collarbone.
I'm open to infinite exciting possibilities.

Claudia von Boeselager: I'm open to infinite exciting possibilities.

Mariko Bangerter: Side of the ribs. And I deeply accept myself and my feelings.

Claudia von Boeselager: And I deeply accept myself and my feelings.

Mariko Bangerter: And just take a deep breath.
So now, to anyone who followed that in the audience, I'd love to find out where you are at now between zero and 10, with your levels of stress, or fear, or anxiety. Hopefully that would have reduced a little bit. And maybe, you know, if it's still, let's say 5, or more, out of 10, do this two or three more times, and you'll notice that it really does start going down to almost a zero.
And the idea is to bring your stress and fear down to a zero, of course.

Claudia von Boeselager: I'm at a zero, for sure. I'd be probably negative. I'm feeling very chilled and relaxed right now. It's so amazing.

Mariko Bangerter: Yeah.

Claudia von Boeselager: In such a short space of time, it has such a profound impact. And I guess also with the NLP, right? So the neuro-linguistic programming, and the wording you're using as well, because they're questions like I guess, or I choose. So there, is that how it's set up, so it's very triggering?

Mariko Bangerter: Yes, because the thing is, the unconscious mind is very, very finicky, and can be put off very quickly if you use the wrong word. So, oftentimes, affirmations don't work unless they really resonate with you. So this is a really good hack, you know, affirmations are powerful things.
One of the simplest ways to reprogram your unconscious mind is by repeating an affirmation. This is how brainwashing works, right? So repeating positive affirmations is like positive brainwashing. But sometimes affirmations don't quite cut it and that's because they don't resonate perfectly. So a quick hack to better allow an affirmation to resonate with you when you're feeling resistance to it.
Like when you hear an affirmation, and you're like that doesn't even feel true. I don't even believe that, then just make it a conditional sentence. So maybe, or I'm open to the possibility of attracting even more abundance into my life. I'm open to the possibility, or maybe I am naturally attracting more abundance into my life.
Maybe I have all the solutions in me. Maybe it's possible that I can attract all these solutions, you know? So yeah. Making it a conditional really will resonate more. So-

Claudia von Boeselager: To get the ego out of there.

Mariko Bangerter: Exactly.

Claudia von Boeselager: To get to the unconscious .

Mariko Bangerter: Because, what happens is, if you get that resistance, if you say something that doesn't resonate, then you'll just, you'll lose that rapport. You'll lose that connection. Yeah.

Claudia von Boeselager: Plus you have such a nice, beautiful voice as well-

Mariko Bangerter: Oh, thank you very much.

Claudia von Boeselager: It's so nice and calming to listen to, I think that kind of adds up to everything as well.
Thank you for walking through that tapping exercise. I'm still feeling very Zen and chilled out now, so.
We'll continue. I'd love to hear your view on relationships. We touched on, obviously, with personal relationships as well, but I'd love to hear your view on solving, sort of, your personal relationship, I guess, with yourself, the importance of that in order to have successful relationships in the outside world. What is your thinking there?

Mariko Bangerter: Yeah. I think the most important relationship to establish and develop and cultivate is a healthy relationship with yourself.
And, unfortunately, if you look at the state of the world and all the wars and all the conflict, this is all done by people who have not done any self-development work. It's people who have not actually looked in and tried to heal what's hurting them. On an unconscious level or, you know-

Claudia von Boeselager: There's such a good phrase for that: "Hurt people, hurt people."

Mariko Bangerter: Exactly. Yeah, absolutely. Which is why the people who are constantly doing this kind of work, you know, let's say Buddhist monks, they don't hurt people. They don't even hurt animals for the most part, or even insects, or whatever it is, any living being.
And so, it's impossible to cultivate a healthy relationship with anyone else, unless you do this inner work first.
And unless you get to a space of self-compassion and self-love. And I think this word self-love gets bandied about a lot, but, and maybe in that way, a lot of people find that it's an abstract concept, but what it essentially is, is accepting yourself for who you are, exactly as you are, with all your flaws. And speaking to yourself, like you would speak to your best friend, looking back at your past, and any hurtful situations, with a lot of patience, and a lot of compassion, and understanding that anyone who has ever hurt you in the past, it was never about you. It really wasn't. It's as you said: "Hurt people, hurt people."
And so I would say I was only able to enter the first healthy relationship of my life after this intense period of self-development work, and healing, that I did on myself. Until that point, all my relationships were unhealthy. I was, you know, with emotionally unavailable men, I was in extremely chaotic, high-strung, tumultuous, relationships. And then a very abusive one. So it has to start with yourself.
Because what happens is, when you do this work and you go through this healing process, which is, I think, especially in the work that I do, it's visceral. There's a somatic component, but there's this visceral letting go, a visceral quality to, you feel different as a result of doing this process.
And of course, it goes much deeper than, you know, this, the little 10 minute one we just did now. It's a whole different thing, but in a therapeutic context, the healing is, it's so profound that you are changed as a result of doing that. And you develop this understanding of yourself and this, kind of, forgiveness of yourself, and this acceptance of yourself that only, it just naturally extends out to others because then you see everyone else as flawed as you, and in need of as much compassion as yourself.
So that is the key to world peace, is doing this work on yourself, and that compassion will then just naturally extend out to others. It's just the way it goes.

Claudia von Boeselager: Amazing. So beautiful. And also the freedom it gives you to stop worrying or thinking about issues or problems that you have, and you just have that peace, that inner peace, right?
So you can focus that energy on much more exciting, fun things that you could be doing with stuff instead, right?

Mariko Bangerter: Exactly, it's so true. Yeah.
Claudia von Boeselager: Oh I love that. Can you talk a bit about, you said you can do different sessions with you and how you see your clients, I mean, I guess with after, sort of, post-COVID era, that you can also see clients around the world, how do you do your different sessions with different people and depending on what they're looking to do?

Mariko Bangerter: Yeah, I hold my sessions online, and so I use Zoom, and there are 90-minute sessions per week, but I have different programs. So my one-on-one programs are 3, 6, and 12 weeks long. So if it's quite a simple issue that needs working, on a small bout of lack of confidence, for example, or a current block, three weeks is enough. And then 6 and 12 weeks for more complex issues.
And the programs are designed to be quite immersive. So I do the 90-minute sessions one-on-one where we go quite deep into the healing work. And then I offer a session recap with the salient points that we've worked through, and I give clients specific or bespoke exercises to do before we meet next.
And these exercises usually are already, you know, are quite transformational in their own rights. And with that, I really get them to practice using this tapping tool on themselves. So I make videos, 10-minute videos, 10, 15-minute videos that I ask for them to practice with. So, you know, my main goal is that my clients learn this incredibly helpful self-help tool that they can use throughout life, in any situation that's gonna cause them stress, for any kind of anxiety, discomfort.
This tool is, it's a tool that everyone should have in their toolkit., 100%.

Claudia von Boeselager: Sounds like a perfect hack for anyone for anywhere. I mean, worst case, you're somewhere and you just need to go into the bathroom and-

Mariko Bangerter: Absolutely.

Claudia von Boeselager: Do tapping, if you can.

Mariko Bangerter: 100%, yeah, totally. And, you know, like, you could have a fear of flying and you're on the plane, at least you can tap on the plane. And I did, I've helped people with a fear of flying, and they were tapping before the plane, and on the plane, and they were able to take a first plane flight in years of having only national holidays, because they were afraid of flying. And just one session of tapping on that phobia was able to help them.

Claudia von Boeselager: I have a friend I might refer to you. I'm just thinking of her, telling me about her phobia of flying.

Mariko Bangerter: Yeah, and then I have a couple of group programs, and these are intimate group programs. Maximum of four people. They're six-week. They're life-changing. They're quite full-on courses where I teach people whole sets of tools to change their lives.
So the two programs, one is called "Magnetize the life you want". And it's all about, firstly, understanding what your life is like right now, where it may be falling behind, and clarifying what you really want, if you could consciously create your life. Understanding all the blocks you have that are stopping you from getting there, and healing all of those blocks, down to the root cause of why you have those blocks in the first place. So there's a lot of healing involved.
And then really consciously constructing this life, and empowering people with all these tools, and mindsets, and visualizations, to be able to go forth and create this life. And the other group course that I do is called transform your relationships, and it's to help anyone with the repeating pattern of unhealthy relationships. Or anyone with a fear of intimacy, a fear of connecting with people, a fear of getting into relationships. And this is also a deeply, deeply healing course in which we go deep into healing from past relationship trauma, even abusive relationships. I really closely guide people to heal a lot of their relationship-related anxieties with this.
And again, it's to, you know, clarify what kind of relationship they do want and to help them with the mindset to be able to do that. So there's two ways-

Claudia von Boeselager: They sound incredible.

Mariko Bangerter: I do love these group programs, too. There's this beautiful energy that's formed in this small group of three to four people. Yeah, there's a synergy, you know, and it's, kind of, you can't describe it. This, kind of, yeah, it's always quite special.

Claudia von Boeselager: Amazing. How can people find these courses?

Mariko Bangerter: Everything's written on my website, which is www.mindsetting.co.uk. Whilst I'm based in the UK, like I said, I do online sessions, so anyone can join from anyone in the world. And otherwise I would say, with social media, I think I'm the most active or most regularly active, on Instagram. And my handle is @mindsetting.with.Mariko.

Claudia von Boeselager: @mindsetting.with.Mariko. And Mariko, for those listeners. It's M-A-R-I-K-O, Mariko.
Excellent. I guess one question, just out of curiosity, what has been some of have most profound results or impacts you've seen clients experience from sessions with you? Be it private or group work, doesn't matter, but where has been some of the most memorable for you?

Mariko Bangerter: I would say, sometimes, you know, it's these obviously very concrete, visible, tangible changes, but often it's, so I can give you some examples. I remember one of my first sessions with someone actually was this lady that I met through work, and she was about to go back on antidepressants. She was severely anxious, and depressed, and just talking to me about it.
And I just asked her, I said, okay, well, maybe today, later on in the day we could just do some tapping together. It ended up being a three-hour session, so it was intense.
But she was in a situation at the time where she was experiencing extreme insecurities in her relationship, extreme jealousy with the friendship between her partner and his ex, and yeah, like I said, about to, about to go on antidepressants because she didn't know how to cope. And kind of lost in her life in general.
Anyway, we did the session and we were out in a park actually, because it was just an ad hoc session. And there was this beautiful moment where, you know, well, we work through the jealousy, we worked through different insecurities, and sometimes there's this moment where you just know that you've said the right thing that, kind of, opens up a doorway to healing.
Like, you've just said something and it just, the coin drops. And it's, kind of, you know, it happens when, you know, I'm in the flow state and it's not a conscious thing. I just feel like I'm just a channel. But in that moment, when we were working together and I said, this one thing, and just the tears started flooding out. And it was just, this is, like, look in her eyes, this profound realization.
And in that same moment, peculiarly, there was this big white feather that floated between us. Just between our two faces, 50 centimeters apart, and it just slipped through. And we were both like, wow, we looked up and there was no bird, nothing, it was just a clear sky. It was so interesting.

Claudia von Boeselager: Wow.

Mariko Bangerter: Like, oh, what a special moment.
Anyway, later after that session, she never went on the antidepressants, her life started flowing. She started her own business. Her relationship with her partner drastically improved. She no longer experienced any jealousy about his friendship with his ex. They moved in together shortly after. And yeah, it was just, you know, such a beautiful kind of series of changes, I would say.

Claudia von Boeselager: Yeah.

Mariko Bangerter: Yeah, I would say, just off the top of my head, I had three sessions with a guy who was afraid of commitment and relationships. So he stayed around a lot.
We also did one session on abundance as well. He's a very small business owner and, kind of, feeling stuck for a while. After the series of three sessions, shortly after, he got into his first committed relationship. And also, incredibly, and I'm not taking credit for all of this at all I'm just saying it's lovely to see these changes, and who knows how much of a part I played.
But, you know, after that, there's this beautiful thing, because the session on abundance we did was a very intensive, just abundance, abundance, like, abundance mindset session. And, after that, his products all got found, I mean, he's based here, but found by a Japanese buyer. And they're now selling nationally all over Japan, these-

Claudia von Boeselager: Wow.

Mariko Bangerter: Yes, that really, like, opened up his, kind of, business career, which was beautiful. And I would say another one that comes to mind is a lady who was struggling with grief for a few years, so much grief after losing her parents, that she just felt such extreme levels of anxiety. And even just the slightest mention of her parents would set her tears off.
And yeah, we did one session on that, and I love working with people who are struggling with grief because, you know, underneath all the sadness, and the pain, and the loss, is this very, very, very potent energy, a connecting energy, of love. And so, if I can help them to just connect to that, and the eternal aspect of love. And this is, you know, it's kind of, again, it's a visceral thing, it's an experiential thing that happens in a session, then the grief just abates, just like this.
Yeah. And so she, yeah, after that session, she just felt completely released from the sadness and the loss. And actually she emailed me to tell me she had this beautiful dream that night, a very symbolic dream, of letting go of the baggage related to the grief of her parents, and being connected to her parents in that dream. And she just said, she woke up the next morning feeling such relief, and lightness, and happiness.

Claudia von Boeselager: That's so incredible. Wow, beautiful.

Mariko Bangerter: It was so beautiful. So beautiful, and I just feel so honored and grateful, that people come to see me and that I'm able to help them in this way. I just, I'm so grateful for the, an honored to be part of that experience. Honestly, so, yeah.

Claudia von Boeselager: Wow. Really, really beautiful.
What, in your view, separates a good EFT coach from a great one, particularly for people maybe interested in reaching out and, depending on your availability, et cetera, if they were looking for a really great EFT coach, what are the things to look out for?

Mariko Bangerter: I would say someone who's quite methodical and thorough.
I think the thoroughness is key. Especially with VFT because there are so many different aspects to a certain issue. And often if you leave a stone unturned, you don't get full, long-lasting, permanent, results. Like, you have to be meticulous with this. So it's almost like having this very logical brain. Or way of thinking.
However, that might not help in the context of this question. So, I would say, you know, someone who's got some good training certified with EFT International, formerly called AAMET, A-A-M-E-T. But now they're called EFTI, EFT International. They really do provide a very thorough and rigorous curriculum. And so I would say that, that's already very good training. Because there are these EFT trainings that are just, like, a day or two, you know, a weekend kind of course.
And I can't speak for all of them, but I would say, you know, the real thorough curriculums that EFTI offers are great. And they teach you really how to work with trauma in a safe and gentle way, and all sorts of complex issues.

Claudia von Boeselager: Incredible. Okay. Thank you for sharing that.
Changing gears to a couple of rapid fire questions before we close, do you have a favorite failure?
So, by that, has there been a failure in your life, or an apparent failure I should say, that set you up for later success?

Mariko Bangerter: Oh, there's so many failures.
Every time I, you know, a career change happened, that's kind of a failure. I think there was a time when I was transitioning from being a chef to doing the work that I do now, where I really, I had no income. And I was also studying, I was studying nutrition at the time. So I was really like in debt and I had no money.
And I think there was this one time that I, I was just so, like, I had the, I had a trauma response to checking my bank statement, or to opening my bank app, you know? Honestly it, and I had to heal that through tapping by the way. And so like, it's fine. But it was like literally opening that app, the bank app, and showing me my, it was like, like the heart would pound. Yeah.
So I think that, the loss of all that, all money, the loss of work, the loss of stability. Really not knowing what was going to give me any income in one or two weeks time. Yeah, I think that really, kind of, put everything into perspective. So now it's like, you know, the challenges I might face are just, I, I've been through worse. I've been through worse. And I've gotten out of it.

And, and also, you know, that's another, it was funny because when that happened, I, I remember just being in fetal position on the kitchen floor crying, and just, like, asking the universe for help. And I think the intensity of that moment and that intention of asking for help, I actually did, I think a week later, I got this interesting job interview to lecture at the college of naturopathic medicine where I do lecture part-time now.
So again, that was just another thing I wanted to add to that story, but, like, intense, intense, intention, AKA, like, a prayer is intensified thoughts with an intention. They're powerful things. They're very powerful things. And there's a, there's a book called the Intention Experiment by Lynne McTaggart that talks about this, and all the studies that have been done to show this.
So I do want to empower people to remember the power of their own thoughts.

Claudia von Boeselager: Yeah, thoughts become things, and intuitive as well, exactly. And intentions.

Mariko Bangerter: Exactly. Yeah.

Claudia von Boeselager: What is an unusual habit or an absurd thing that you love?

Mariko Bangerter: Unusual or absurd. Oh my goodness. I can't think of something right now. I think so many things like I, you know, I'm not very normal, I'm quite quirky.

Claudia von Boeselager: Who is?

Mariko Bangerter: Yeah.

Claudia von Boeselager: So, for instance, I have the Japanese acupressure mat, which my family nickname "The Torture Mat", which just helps me sleep so beautifully. If I've had a crazy day or something, just lying on it for 10, 20 minutes. Any sort of random hacks, or tools, or items, that you just love?

Mariko Bangerter: There's so many tools and hacks and things that I use.
So for example, essential oils, I love aromatherapy, I love essential oils. I've never plunged into an ice bath or anything yet, but I've been in a cold bath, and I do the occasional, end on a cold shower, and force myself to endure a hot bath before bed, which I find really just tires me out. Just to, kind of, replicate the feeling of being in a hot sauna, which really does help me sleep like a baby.

Claudia von Boeselager: I try my luck at the cold showers as well, in terms of, at the end, just getting colder, but I really find I don't have issues with feeling the cold anymore. I was actually talking this morning with somebody about it, who was cold there to stand in the sun. And I was like, it's such a, almost foreign concept now to me, whereas I used to have freezing cold hands and feet and things like that as well.
So that cold therapy is really, really powerful.

Mariko Bangerter: Yeah, incredible. Yeah.

Claudia von Boeselager: You touched on food and nutrition, and as I understand, you're quite an expert on this. Do you see a relationship between the food that we eat and emotions we feel?

Mariko Bangerter: Absolutely. Definitely. I mean, you know, without a balanced diet, we simply cannot produce the neurotransmitters necessary to regulate our mood, or the hormones necessarily. You know, so 100%, the nutrition that we get in the form of the meals that we eat, in any given day, are the building blocks of these neurotransmitters and hormones. So yeah, 100%. There's no doubt about it.
And I think eating processed fast food, or just a diet lacking in the micronutrients, the vegetables, and such, really do lead to things like underlying anxiety, or a lack of energy, a lack of vitality. Yeah.

Claudia von Boeselager: Yeah. I mean, blood sugar spike, and then the crash, and with caffeine aswell.

Mariko Bangerter: Yeah.

Claudia von Boeselager: Are there particular foods that are hugely beneficial that you eat yourself, or certain foods for certain moods? Can you even say it like that. Or also drinks, certain teas?

Mariko Bangerter: Yeah, I would say I really love, well, I really notice it when I'm not getting enough vegetables in my diet. Like my body really starts to crave it. And then my body starts to crave, like, the junk food, like chips, for example, or crisps, you know, potato chips. If I don't get the adequate, like, minerals and micronutrients from vegetables.
So I think one group of vegetables that I really start to crave, especially, are the cruciferous ones. So, all the dark green leafy vegetables, and the broccoli, and things like that. And that is something I really try and have every single day. Spring greens, kale, broccoli.
And I love cacoa, I love chocolate. So in the form of, like, even, like, chocolate milk.
I don't drink milk, I have almond milk or oat milk or something, but it's something like that I find it stimulating enough, and so, yeah, I just, I love it.

Claudia von Boeselager: And it has an antioxidant benefit as well, so, yeah.

Mariko Bangerter: Totally, all these polyphenols. And I love broths as well, just easily digestible. Just, broths. Whether they're meat-based or whatever, but-

Claudia von Boeselager: Yeah, and so good at healing the gut as well, like organic chicken broth or something like that. Yeah. Slow cooked, which is really incredible.
Do you have a favorite quote or piece of advice that has been a real game changer for you?

Mariko Bangerter: Yeah. I would say: "Don't believe everything that you think." Who was it that said that, and Henry Ford said a similar one: "Whether you think you can, or whether you think you can't, you're right."
So, again, it's just bringing it back to the thought, and how we have all these thoughts, but sometimes we just give them too much importance. And these thoughts, even if they're stubborn, they can be changed with the right techniques and tools. And I think that's really important. And everything starts with a thought, doesn't it? Like, you know, you said thoughts create things, but I would say even thoughts are already things. So-

Claudia von Boeselager: Yeah.

Mariko Bangerter: So yeah, I think the importance of remembering that.
Claudia von Boeselager: I like that. So we talked about where people can find you, so on mindsetting.co.uk, and also on Instagram as your main source as well. And this has been just such an incredible interview, and thank you so much. And I love that we can do the technique I'm still feeling very Zen from it aswell, and focused.
I wonder if you have any parting recommendations, or advice, or parting thoughts or message for my audience?

Mariko Bangerter: Yeah, I would say, we are not taught this ever. We are not taught this at school. We're not taught this by our parents, really, unless you're extremely fortunate. And I think that must be less than 0.5% of people on Earth who have really, like, emotionally aware parents.
But I think it's so important to be proactive with your healing. And by healing I mean, healing from past trauma or past situations that still leave a negative imprint right now within you. So I think it's very, very important to have one foot, sort of, facing forwards into the future, planning, goal setting, et cetera.
But one foot has to be facing the past, proactively healing from adverse past events, because that does not get healed by itself. It just doesn't, it just stays. It stays. And it remains in the form of limiting beliefs, or self-sabotaging behaviors, self-sabotaging mindsets, fear, or trauma.
And the way to do this is to, yeah, maybe work with someone who you can trust, but it's to really go back into the past, gently, leave you feeling upset, but actually leave you feeling peaceful about it, and empowered. Yeah, so that healing is so, so important, I think.

Claudia von Boeselager: And EFT is such a great method for it as well, and quite effective, I guess, talk therapy can go on for years and years, and this can be done in a few sessions, you said. So that's really incredible.
Mariko Bangerter: It is. It is. It really is. And I wish more people knew about modalities like this. So, so thank you, Claudia, for having me on-

Claudia von Boeselager: My pleasure and hopefully all the people who need to hear this around the world will be listening to this as well. So thank you so much for coming on to the Longevity & Lifestyle Podcast, Mariko. This has been a real pleasure today.

Mariko Bangerter: Thank you so much. It's been such a pleasure too. Thank you.