Claudia von Boeselager [00:00:00]:
Welcome back, dear audience, to another episode of the longevity and lifestyle podcast. I'm your host, Claudia von Boeselager, here to bring you the latest insights and learnings to improve your health, your life and happiness for longer. Thank you for being part of this tribe and wanting to be at your best each day. I love to hear from you, so feel free to follow and reach out on Instagram on lifestyle. My guest today is John Gillen, a visionary in the field of addiction treatment and a true pioneer in innovation health therapies. With over 19 years of dedicated experience, John has traveled the globe studying and implementing cutting edge addiction treatment models. He is a celebrated trailblazer who introduced NAD therapy in Europe in 2010, revolutionizing the approach to health and wellness. In recognition of his groundbreaking work, John was appointed a visiting professor at the John Nesbitt University in Belgrade, Serbia.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:00:57]:
His relentless pursuit of innovative treatments such as virtual reality, relapse prevention, and photobiomodulation showcases his commitment to pursuing the boundaries of what's possible in health and wellness. Please enjoy. Welcome to the longevity and lifestyle podcast, John. It's a pleasure to have you with us today.

John Gillen [00:01:13]:
Nice to meet you finally, Claudia.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:01:16]:
Yes, we managed to get the schedule. So very excited to have you on, and I'd love to kick off with John if you could share more about your journey and what inspired you to get into the field of NAD and NAD in Europe already back in 2010?

John Gillen [00:01:32]:
Yeah. Well, actually my introduction to NAD began in really 2009, when I was attending a conference in LA. My core interest at that time was instillers, to a degree, alcohol dependency. I committed this healthcare business through my own personal experience of alcohol dependency, which, you know, really took me to the depths of despair. Previous to that, I was involved in horse racing, I was a jockey and I was a professional racehorse trainer. So the lifestyle comes hand in hand. But anyway, in 2009, this conference, which was neuroscientific conference in LA, I met a friend of mine called Doctor Hyla Cass. Doctor Cass is really quite well known in the field of psychiatry regarding addictive disorders.

John Gillen [00:02:33]:
She specialises in using non drug specific protocols, all based on holistic treatments. So I'd known Hyla two or three years previous to this. Now she just had a whisper in my ear about this miraculous IV protocol that was being used in the William Hick clinic in Tijuana in Mexico. And she'd been there and she'd seen this happening. You know, she was really quite intrigued about it. So when I come back to London, it sat in my mind for some time. A couple of weeks later, I contacted and I thought, well, you know, there's something. I need to go back there and see what this is all about.

John Gillen [00:03:17]:
I quickly came back to San Diego. I met with Doctor Cass Arler and we took a trip to Tijuana, across the border to the hip clinic. So I was there for a week. The Hick clinic at that time was really quite well known. You had a lot of celebrity people visiting there from earlier for this protocol. People like John Gray, the best selling author, sang his praises. So when I got there, I had the opportunity to try this IV protocol for myself, but also had the opportunity to mingle with a few alcohol dependent people who were there for the reason of this. During the five days, what I seen and what I heard these people talking about just sort of blew me away.

John Gillen [00:04:09]:
I had been working in the field of alcohol dependency for some time now, but what I was seeing, I'd never seen before how rapid a recovery these people were making on physical, emotional and mental levels. I was absolutely awestruck. So when I came back to the UK, I quickly reorganized everything I was doing and I decided I must bring this protocol to the UK. So then I started to organise what was called the Bionad clinic at that time in Marylebone in London and Harley street. That's how I was introduced to it, through Doctor Heinlecass.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:04:54]:
I'd love to ask you, John, what were some of the stories that you heard while you were at the clinic in Tijuana that you found so compelling? What was it that you were hearing?

John Gillen [00:05:06]:
Yeah, well, I mean. I mean, you know, Ned, at that time, I mean, it was. I mean, nobody'd ever heard of it. I mean, if you visited Google and looked at Ned, all you would see there is heavy, heavy science papers. A few, anyway, really heavy, difficult to understand scientific papers. It was not a commercial product, the way you see it now. And it had actually been used in South Africa since the early seventies to assist alcoholics through an accelerated detox process. What I seen there was.

John Gillen [00:05:46]:
Now, at that time, I was a few years, settled into recovery myself. The way the Ned affected me, I was not using it for any reasons like the people that I met. But what I would normally see is people were coming in on the first day. Now, they probably never had a drink for 24 hours. These are fairly chronic dependent people who suffered quite severe withdrawal effects. What we'd need to do, we really need to administer, you know, Benzapine, sedative drugs to help, something like that. Now, in the hick clinic, there were obviously a doctor there who. There was six people I'd seen there.

John Gillen [00:06:33]:
Out of these six people, two of the people were administered Benzapine assistant withdrawal medication that you would get here in the UK. Now, I was used to that. The other people refused to take that. They just wanted the iv. As day one started to day two or day three, I was with these people for a good 7 hours each day. Now, what I would normally see is people really getting into a bit of a state, you know, physically shaking, and really kind of really in a real intense withdrawal state, which is a multiple symptoms of, well, basically stress. And what I noticed was these people never went through that phase. And the people that was on the benzos, by day three, they requested to stop the benzos, which was unknown to me, because normally a benzo protocol for an alcohol withdrawal would be ten days, a gradual reduction.

John Gillen [00:07:39]:
These people were off in three days. And by day five, they were absolutely, absolutely as right as they could ever be. Some of the. In that group, there were two middle aged women. Now, what I seen, it was hardly believable to me at the time. The difference to the physical appearance within three to five days was absolutely astounding to me how young they looked. Never mind the effects on the alcohol withdrawal, which were absolutely. On a scale from one to ten, which you would expect from eight to ten, these people were way down there in one to two.

John Gillen [00:08:26]:
That, to me, I'd never seen that before using a natural compound. So. And the way they were cognitively, they were, you know, they were right there. They were right with their cell, and they were explaining and expressing how calm and how. How they were feeling within their cell phone, you know, cognitive point of view. They were as good as they could ever be. There were no after effects or anything like that. It was just astounding.

John Gillen [00:08:55]:
What I've really seen is what NAd talks about today, a reversal. A reversal in this aging process with alcohol and alcoholism. If you ever want to see an acceleration of the aging process, it's in that particular individual, especially, in my opinion, a female in her mid forties. Now, I'd seen that with my own ice. Now, in 2013, obviously, the scientist, David Sinclair, he reversed the aging process using NAd and animals. I never really, really needed to read that. I'd seen that happen in human beings in that particular client group. I stayed in touch with these people for some time after I came back, and they used to write emails to me, messages saying how well they were doing, how they were functioning better, and so forth.

John Gillen [00:09:53]:
That communication lasted for a good five to eight months with some of them, and they were all doing well. Ned was never said to be something that's going to be life changing in an alcohol. It's just part of a program everybody needs to attend. I'd just like to point out at that time, the whole idea of this Ned was never mentioned. At this point, what we were looking at and what we thought was happening is, was a specialist, a special combination of amino acids. That's what we were told it was doing. It was having this effect. So at the time, Ned was kept a secret in the iconic.

John Gillen [00:10:38]:
So when I started it in the UK, when I brought it to the UK, I brought this protocol believing it was a special combination of amino acids. Now, at that time, William Hutt, the physician who started all this, had passed away and his wife had taken control of the business. When I was there, she was in the process of selling the secrets of miraculous infusion to a substantial compounding pharmacy in Florida. And they seemingly had to vet me first before they would allow me to use this protocol. So I had to go through an interview process with the compounding pharmacy and they ticked me off. So I was granted the use of this. Now, at the same time, a group of people from Springfield Wellness, Doctor Richard Mary and his wife Paula, they took their daughter for this treatment, and it really had a big effect on their daughter. So they were investigating this at the same time as me.

John Gillen [00:11:45]:
So at that time in the world, there were only maybe four or five people really interested in this. And that was wonderful. Just about the same time with some really serious research, because what was happening to me, these side effects that you get when you're taking out an iv NAD, which can be quite nuisance, side effects are not very nice.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:12:08]:
Nausea.

John Gillen [00:12:11]:
That's why an NAD fusion takes considerable time to administer in the majority of people. So at the same time, this compound in pharmacy, also as part of this detox protocol, supplied oral supplements as part of the protocol. When I looked at the ingredients of some of these supplements, which were more or less the same combination of amino acids and minerals and so forth, and some vitamins, I've seen this other compound called nicotinamide adenine, the nucleotide. Nobody had ever spoke to me about it. I started to hone on in this and I started to do a lot of research on it. And the more I looked at it, the more it became quite clear to me this missing ingredient, which they had to, legally, they had to put it on that bottle. That led to the discovery, my personal discovery, this Ned so I confronted Jane Hick in Mexico, and I also confronted the pharmaceutical company who was making this. They put their hands in there and guessed right, you know, and I was told, well, you know, just keep it under the radar, so to speak.

John Gillen [00:13:37]:
But at the same, exact same time in America and Louisiana, doctor media had discovered this at the same time. So the bubble was pushed, so to speak. So from that point on, everybody knew it was this Ned. I mean, that sounds a bit, you know, strange story, but, I mean, this is the truth. I mean, no, I mean, I'm here to tell you the truth about how this began.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:14:03]:
Yeah.

John Gillen [00:14:04]:
So the veil was lifted and everybody started to hear about this Ned. And that's from that point on, the amino acids, which are great. Don't get me wrong, it's a good thing, but it was really the Ned was making the difference. At the clinic in London, I quickly reorganized myself and I really kind of started to talk about Nad as the primary compound that was helpful and a christian to clinic Bionada. Quite a story. Quite an interesting story.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:14:39]:
That's so exciting. I firmly believe that we're put on paths and we encounter people we're supposed to along the way for a reason. The beautiful thing is that you took action and decided to bring it to a clinic, to London to allow more people access. So I applaud you for that. I'd love to hear, John, a bit, if you could share with my audience in terms of addiction and why or how is Nad's helping with addiction, maybe you could write, walk into a little bit, like, what is happening in the body for people listening and curious to understand.

John Gillen [00:15:10]:
Yeah, well, yeah, well, I mean, firstly, I really can only speak it from an observational point of view on countless hundreds and hundreds clients have used Ned for many, many years now. But basically, if I look at alcohol addiction primarily because, I mean, if we're talking about neddeen, you really got to focus mainly on alcohol addiction. Now, alcohol, you know, alcoholics, extremely deficient in NAD, extremely deficient to the point where they suffer from what's called subconic appallagra. Pellagra is a fatal disease, a terrible disease it may have, but 150 years ago, hundreds and hundreds of people were dying horrible deaths in the midwest, in America, from this unknown disease. A military surgeon went down and investigated what was happening with these people. These people were field workers, were farm workers. They were in poverty, and the staple diet was only made. He discovered that these people were dying because of a b three niacin deficiency.

John Gillen [00:16:33]:
Ned is the biological active form of b, three niacin. So niacin is an essential vitamin the body must get or you fall into this state, which is called pellagra. The disease is known worldwide as Pellagra. It still exists in pockets of the world where there's extreme poverty and people don't have a proper diet. So when anybody drinks alcohol any day, is used in masses amounts to help the body through the detox process. You know, when you're young, your body has a lot of nad. Now, you may be drinking a lot, but your body's producing a lot of nad. So the way it counteracts the poisonous effects, the alcohol cause, you know, you may suffer a hangover for two or three days, and then your body's producing a lot of naD, so you start to feel better again.

John Gillen [00:17:33]:
Now, that's a different story when you're age 40, when your body, it's not making a lot of nad and you're still drinking the same amount, so you're really getting into a toxic state. Nad is part of the body's process of detox. Very, very important. If it wasn't for Ned, you know, a little amount of alcohol would have, you know, fatal effects on people. I mean, because, I mean that, I mean, when you drink alcohol, the body's reaction to it is it produces toxins which are hundreds of times more toxic than the alcohol itself. So any day there's a middle player there, and it helps the body detox acetyl aldehyde and other toxic chemicals out rapidly the body. So the more you're drinking, the more the NAD is used, the less you have. So you wake up in the morning, you don't have any energy, you can't get out of bed, you have a headache, you've got all the symptoms of a conventional hangover.

John Gillen [00:18:35]:
You know, alcoholics really are deficient in NAD, really deficient. And the symptoms of this disease, pellagra, is the same as alcohol. It's dementia, PTS, dermatitis, diarrhea and death. And that's the link between the two. But also any day in the past 1015 years, it's become accepted as a neurotransmitter. So it can affect systems in the brain. Also it can affect serotonin, it can affect dopamine levels and so forth. And all cells need NAD to fire.

John Gillen [00:19:16]:
So if you're a big heavy duty receptor site in the brain, a neuron there, if you don't have enough NeD, it doesn't fire properly. If there's Ned there, the cell does its job as well. So from a brain function point of view, it has an effect there as well. It's absolutely vital. Even anybody just drinking socially at a certain age, it'd be good for them just to even start to take some niacin. B. Three niacin.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:19:48]:
Yeah. And I think there's such an explosion on NAd now, which we'll get to shortly, but I'd love to take a step back and revisit. So you decided to bring the protocols to the UK. But I can imagine that there might have been some challenges that you had faced introducing nad therapy to the market. Maybe you can share a bit about how that process was.

John Gillen [00:20:10]:
Yeah, well, you know, there are certainly challenges. You know, I set myself up and, you know, right in the center of the medical center of London, the high street. Nobody had heard of anything. I'm not a doctor myself, but there was quite a bit of talk around the area about this Ned. It was, you know, a lot of people were seeing it as a bit of controversial treatment and like snake oil and stuff like that, you know, a lot of challenging times with professional people, you know, condemning it and so forth. I mean, what we were doing was perfectly legal any day is a natural compound, you know, because it's through an iv infusion. We always use doctors who prescribed the protocol and stuff like that. There were challenges.

John Gillen [00:21:11]:
The healthcare regulators in England, the CQC, had never heard the Ned also. So I had a little bit of convincing name that this was a safe treatment to offer people and stuff like that. So it was quite challenging. But the most challenging thing about it was public perception of it because nobody even heard of it. I mean, there were a lot of doctors at the same time using megadose vitamin C, for instance, you know, other things like that which people had some sort of idea could maybe help them. But Ned, because it's unknown reputation, the challenge was to get. Get the word out there for people to start to learn about it. So it was a lot of a couple of years.

John Gillen [00:21:56]:
But then, you know, people started, you know, some senior doctors start to come and see me and some scientists and so forth. And it really, a few of them, especially the functional medicine doctors, they really started to give attention, in fact, to the point where they actually referred some of their patients to my clinic. And then when the patients returned back, they could see, they could notice the difference in how the people were talking about the treatment. So it took a good three, four years to get the wheels oiled and get things moving. Of course, now it's like the Wild west show out there.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:22:33]:
I know there's a lot of research out there and, you know, discussion around it as well. What are some of the most exciting research that you've seen that have come to light around NAD and its application? That excited about?

John Gillen [00:22:48]:
Yeah, Claudia, you know, research, I've researched Ned for many, many years. I've got two close friends of mine. Sue, in my opinion, are the top Ned scientists in the world with Doctor Nady Brady, who's been to London with me many, many times, and Doctor Ross Granthenne, who specifically focus on ed for neurodegenerative futures. Now, I don't think anybody really knows the complete science of Ned. I don't think anybody knows that. It's such a complicated molecule. It's such a molecule, has such a catalyst effect on many, many systems, you know, inside the cell and I outside the cell. So I don't think anybody really is totally sort of cracked yet.

John Gillen [00:23:49]:
I just know from my observation what I've seen through the years. You know, in the beginning, like I say, I use the word astounding. I was astounded. The good thing about Ned, in my experience anyway, is at least 95% to 97% of people respond to it in a positive way. Some people that could be really quite profound. In other ways it can be more subtle, but still very meaningful. So the research it means most to me is the observation I've had all through the years. But science is science, and it's moving on.

John Gillen [00:24:29]:
It's taken more of an interest in any for real serious health issues that people, as a preventative measure rather than a cure. I think lifestyle, when you're talking about any day, I think lifestyle is an absolute must. Like I say, when you're young, you don't have to worry so much, but once you get through that, getting into your mid thirties, then you really have, I mean, to get the benefits of, if you value what NAD really is in the body, and obviously you just cannot have life without NAD. Every living system has nad. Lifestyle is a big component to the whole NAD world. But research, it continues. I've never seen anything lately that has caught my attention, to be quite frank with you. I think the research is coming from Doctor Ross Grant and Nady Brady.

John Gillen [00:25:27]:
I tend to follow them. I don't follow a lot of research that's coming from other scientists from the states because they're also looking at NAD as a commercial product. The scientists I talked about, they're not involved in that. The research today, I don't see it's been any different to what it was maybe five years ago previously.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:25:51]:
Yeah. Because you mentioned your colleague was saying with the neurodegenerative. Sorry, neurodegenerative diseases, what are some things you've heard there? And this is obviously an area of my personal interest because my mother has dementia, late stage dementia at this point. What are some things that you've heard about or seen there? And also, I want to ask around that. Is it always with the NAD Drip or using other interventions or other applications?

John Gillen [00:26:22]:
For all this time, the only way that I've been administered NAD was through an iv infusion, which is very costly and it's very. It's a very clumsy type of iv infusion because of the side effects you get and the length of time it takes, but mostly because it's very expensive. What's happened? It's Ned's caught the world's interest, and a lot of people, you know, using it, what they're doing is they're just using the same protocols for someone who's extremely deficient and somebody who's wanting IV NAD for maybe just general wellness and health and stuff like that. Now, that ain't good, because you start overloading the system with NAD, you're going to get a lot of negative side effects that can occur. So it's never the case. The more NAD, the better, that's for sure. Even with. Even with the addicted clients, when they start a five day treatment program, by day three, they'll have what's called the Naddem day, where I find people on day three who really could absolutely.

John Gillen [00:27:49]:
So chronically fatigued, some of them could not even get out their hotel room to come back to the clinic for a whole whole day, because when you overload NAD into the system, it can upset the NAD NADH ratio, and it's the ratio, it counts, not just one or the other. So if you've got too much NAD, you've got a lot less NADH, and that means you don't have any energy. Now, it's the Ned H. That is the spark plug for the energy value from Ned. So Ned will go capture a hydrogen atom and become NADH. I'll then go to the cell and it'll drop the hydrogen in the cell and there's a little explosion. Energy becomes a nad again, and its job is to go and get another hydrogen atom and bring it back in again. You get that.

John Gillen [00:28:44]:
So when you upset that ratio, you can have really issues, fatigue issues, by overdosing NAd. So the protocols through an IV infusion, for someone who's just looking for general wellness a little bit, you know, more energy and so forth. You can never use the same protocols as I was describing for a chronic alcoholic person, that is for sure. There's a lot of this, you know, piggybacking on old stuff like that. I think that really needs to be quite clear.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:29:19]:
Yeah, thank you for sharing that. Yeah. Because a lot of these, they have the NAD drips and things like that, too, and I think people really need to look into the modalities and if it's a necessary. So thank you for highlighting. Yeah.

John Gillen [00:29:33]:
So the subcutaneous night at home idea came, obviously, as a result of COVID where no one, the existing client groups I had were, you know, wanting Nad, but obviously the clinic was closed, so I started to try on myself and some close, experienced ned clients of mine, and we started to use the subcutaneous. And, you know, what, you know, the effects and the results that was coming through were even better than an iv infusion because then there were more people having the availability because I do it yourself at home kit, it's much cheaper, and there were much more people using it. So the feedback I was getting was actually better than what it was with an iv infusion because people were not complaining about all the horrible side effects or the dump, the night dump day and stuff like that. It was. The subcutaneous is my preferred way for general use of any day. I use it every day myself. Now. I would still stick with an iv if it was for some specific condition, early onset Parkinson's and dementia.

John Gillen [00:30:54]:
Like you spoke about your mother. I think this is very useful and can be very useful at early stage as a way of maybe slowing the progression of things and at the same time maintaining a quality of life, which is important with these chronic also. So 30 years, I've been able to have the privilege of helping some people with Parkinson's and early onset dementia as well. So the dosing has to be respected. And it's not just, I say that the more NAd, the better. The best way to have NAd is smaller doses, but frequently, normally, two or three NAd infusions, and then, you know, six months later, another. The best way to do it is a consistent basis as part of a lifestyle.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:31:48]:
So. And what is the difference between there's now, like, Nad available in pill form, there's a subcutaneous as mentioning as well with the microdose of it?

John Gillen [00:32:01]:
Yeah. Well, I mean, obviously, right at the beginning, when you had companies like Chromadex with the Niagen and all these NAD precursors, all came well after I was involved with NAd, so I've watched how that's evolved through the years. And if you go to any of the Google pages or anything, any of the science that you'll see will be this type of, in my opinion, pseudo type science poem, one of these precursor products that everybody's using these days. I personally don't use any precursor myself. I don't see it. I would rather, if I was looking for a precursor, I'd probably take some niacin. To be quite honest with you, that would be my preferred choice, and much cheaper at the same time. You know, any day, you know, there are more people beginning to make it.

John Gillen [00:32:59]:
The company that I use is a company that's been, it started with a friend of mine who has a pharmaceutical company in India, a company called Nad Leaf. And it's Steve McDonald who makes the IV and the subcutaneous injectable Ned, and it's top grade, high, pure quality Ned. That's also very important to know the source, where the compounds are coming from and do a little bit of homework to make sure the oven stacks up, because people in China producing Nad has become a commercial product and it's just getting turned out in mass amounts with people in every, you know, so it's wise to go to the source and make sure that the source of the product is correct. The company I work with are the only licensed manufacturer in the world. I mean, it has a license in India. A lot of the NED is made in small compounding pharmacies in and around the states, Pacific patient named supplies, which I know some of the compounded pharmacies have been doing it for a long time. They're really quite good, some of them, but I would certainly do your homework. If you're looking for an injectable or an iv to make sure it's good quality and it's produced in the right, under the right GMP conditions and so forth.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:34:29]:
What would you recommend, John, for people who want to do the homework, what should they look out for?

John Gillen [00:34:34]:
For the home, the home use?

Claudia von Boeselager [00:34:37]:
For the home use, exactly.

John Gillen [00:34:39]:
Yeah. Well, look, I mean, by all means, you can, you can try the precursors. Hundreds of people who have kept me, me have tried the precursors, but then they start the sub q or the iv, and it's a completely different ballgame for them, you know, and, you know, and then they find out with the subcutaneous depending, you know, your reasons for using it, if it's for a general health condition, if it's wellness and energy, you know, it's always good to start off with a little loading effects. So use it three, maybe four days in a row, you know, then every other day, or depending on your lifestyle. Lifestyle is different to how you use it. So if you're having a few glasses of wine every night, then I'd be saying it unique. It's probably wise to use it every day, to be quite honest with you, because there's nothing worse depletes any day than alcohol. Alcohol, excessive exercise and a stressful, busy lifestyle.

John Gillen [00:35:48]:
And, you know, at this time of the year, I'm not talking about the UK. Exposing yourself to the sun is another way of really depleting your nads. You've maybe done it yourself. You maybe lay out in the sun for maybe an hour or so, or maybe longer, and then you feel quite exhausted, you know, because all the Ned has, the body's prioritized it to protect the skin. A lot of people, it's quite a big organ. So sometimes you feel fatigued after a sunbathing session. So you have to be careful with lifestyle. But generally speaking, three, four consecutive days, then every other day, if your lifestyle is quite a balanced and healthy, that's.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:36:36]:
A good way to do it. You've also studied photobiomodulation in Russia. So what are the potential? What do you see the benefits?

John Gillen [00:36:45]:
I mean, that's very interesting. I was using it in combination with the NAd as well. I mean, photobiomodulation, I think it stacks up pretty well. It's been around for a long time. I mean, the Russians have been using it for decades and decades. In fact, most of the science to do with photobiomodulation, especially red spectrum light, has been done in Russia. You know, the translation from that science to western understanding has taken a long, long time, but it's really took quite a claim in the past, say, five years, especially with red. Red leaks.

John Gillen [00:37:27]:
Better now. I was using an iv. It was iv readily. I was doing it in the clinic, and, you know, especially for people with pain syndromes, were coming back to me and seeing how much it helped reduce the effective pain in these people. It's something that I try to create a based on laser, which was, you know, it could maybe penetrate through the skin into the bloodstream that way. That never really took off for me, but I would still support photobiomodulation. Yeah, I mean, there's some big companies like Thornlew coming up with all sorts of lasers and red light appliances. So that's something that I would definitely.

John Gillen [00:38:20]:
Let me come back and look at that. I mean, the clinic I'm involved with here in Scotland. One of the reasons I've come back to Scotland is to open up Scotland's first psychedelic clinic. So it took me two years, but the scottish regulators up here only two weeks ago have registered the clinic. It's a clinic called Aeolus. So we start off with ketamines, but we don't want to be known as a ketamine clinic. We're certainly Scotland's first ketamine clinic. We will be using it for treatment resistant depression and so forth, but we'll be adding the other psychedelic compounds onto that as they're released for license.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:39:06]:
And.

John Gillen [00:39:07]:
Also with alcohol as well. It's quite outstanding. It's a phase three study in process right now with Exeter University. These studies will be probably published in a year's time. The studies in phase two were certainly convincing enough for me. If you were talking about research, I've never seen anything in my lifetime that is showing the positive effects and alcohol dependent people like assisted psychotherapy programs. And that's, like I say, that's my real interest. So it's a whole new venture for us being back here in Scotland.

John Gillen [00:39:50]:
With Scotland's first psychedelic ketamine clinic, we have interest from Edinburgh University, has been granted funding to do research with us and so forth. This is a whole new thing. But again, in that clinic we'll be also using as well as combination with ketamine bokulotic clinics.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:40:12]:
It's very exciting. Yeah. I have some friends and contacts in the US who have ketamine assisted therapy clinics as well, and also for treating chronic chronic pain, obviously treatment resistant depression. I mean, there's very compelling research for people unfamiliar even out of many universities now at this stage, but originally sort of imperial, John Hopkins, etcetera, we're looking at the psychedelic support, and I've been at conferences also where veterans have gone up and said they wouldn't be here was it not for psychedelic assisted therapy. So it is very compelling for a.

John Gillen [00:40:45]:
Lot of people too. That's where the science is really. If I'm looking at anything these days, I follow the research coming out of psychedelic science. And I just came back from a big conference in Amsterdam two weeks ago where everybody's the biggest one in Europe. I'm a little bit disappointed that, you know, MDMA never get past this time, but Rick Dublin, who's gave 35 years of his life through the maps program, he was there, but he's pretty, you know, confident. And by October it'll have its full FDA approval and hopefully shortly after that we'll be able to use it here in the UK as well. And then obviously the psilocybin and, and, you know, DMT and other psychedelic medicines as a just tick Bible. Hopefully we'll be able to use here as well.

John Gillen [00:41:39]:
So that's where I'm at right now. I'm really kind of excited about the future of psychedelic medicine and mental health, psychiatry and obviously addictions.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:41:49]:
Yeah, yeah, I think it's really exciting, compelling. I mean, just looking at the success rates, it's almost unheard of. I was at a presentation of a friend, Sean Wells, in Dallas, at the bio hacking conference recently and it's. I mean you're looking at success rates of like 85%, 75%.

John Gillen [00:42:07]:
Yeah.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:42:07]:
You never see this in research.

John Gillen [00:42:10]:
Yeah. And you know, I've been in the states a lot of psychedelic conferences and I mean, it's great to hear the scientists and all the psychiatrists and everybody else talk about this and the clinicians, but I'm getting the opportunity to meet the people on the ground and I've spent loads of time talking to people whose lives are completely changed by this experience. That's really how I judge what I'm doing. I listen to what the people's actually saying, but I think it's definitely a game changing event in mental health. Again, the challenges are people's perceptions that are used to psychedelics in a positive way, especially ketamine.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:42:55]:
Yeah.

John Gillen [00:42:56]:
But like you say, the science is there to support this and I think the UK or here in Scotland, the toughest thing I've ever done in my life was to get this clinic here over the lane. I mean, you know, being the first in Scotland to say quite something. It's really been quite difficult process to get this to where it is, but we got it two weeks ago. We have a top consultant psychiatrist who is a medical director. She's based in London about waters, but we have a lot of physicians and everything else here in Scotland and we'll have a training program starting within the next six months and we're going to show other people how to put all this together and so forth. It's exciting times, but like I say, we'll include the Ned as well for people who choose to watch to try that as well. So, exciting times.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:43:51]:
Yeah, yeah, for sure. So congratulations on persevering across the finishing line with getting regulators to change their.

John Gillen [00:43:59]:
Mind is never an easy task, especially here in Scotland.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:44:03]:
If anyone could do it, you could, John. So well done. As we today, John, for my listeners interested in understanding nad and even psychedelic assisted therapy for living better. What are some online resources or books you'd recommend they start with?

John Gillen [00:44:21]:
Well I mean I think there's that much on the Internet now. We've got some great associations that you just subscribe to. They're free, all the updates and you can join free podcasts. I mean the whole psychedelic world's just exploded. The information is, you know, getting updated day by day and a lot is, like I say, it's free. Credit professionals, you know, there's some good training courses based in the states and the main foundation in Germany offer professional training courses. But I mean what we are doing at a Ulyss, a Ulysses, a name, it's an old celtic, scottish, celtic name. It means change by experience, you know.

John Gillen [00:45:08]:
So we'll be, our website will be getting up, you know, updated regular as well. Once we start going, our first clients will probably start to come to the clinic probably around about maybe the end of July, mid July. So we'll be given a lot of updates. Here in Scotland there is a psychedelic association free to join. I would say anybody who's interested in mental health or anybody who's been unsuccessful with other psychiatric treatments, it's definitely worth having a little look at these new psychedelic medicines because like I say, I've never actually seen, I never thought it'd be possible for me to see in my lifetime that the science that's coming from psychedelics.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:45:56]:
Yeah, it's very exciting. Where can people learn more about what you are up to, John, where would you direct them? Be it on social media or any websites? What would you like to share?

John Gillen [00:46:06]:
Yeah, well, right now to learn more about what I'm doing and the collection of people that surround me, I've got some fantastic people around me from all over the world. I think the Aeolus dot co dot UK website would be the main site to look at as far as Ned then nedplusome.com. but I've got a new venture that I've started with my daughters. If you were talking about the science, I've now just formed a company called Nadpet. So Ned, a sublingual syringe application for a pets has now launched. So we have nad pet friend who's interested in cats and dogs. It's a Horace bicycle application. So it's just like a little syringe, sublingual syringe.

John Gillen [00:47:00]:
And with my background in horse racing, we have a more high powered subcutaneous injection for performance. Echoing nad. So that's going on. Nadpet dot co dot UK.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:47:13]:
Beautiful.

John Gillen [00:47:14]:
These are available now. Beautiful research. I mean, the animal world has supplied all the research for any day and nobody's gone back to help the animals. So it's, you know, so I'm doing that. So I'm taking that research. It came from the animal world and I'm now treating the animals with it.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:47:35]:
Beautiful. I think that will be a huge market as well. Everyone wants their pets, a healthy environment.

John Gillen [00:47:41]:
And it's much, much, much more affordable and things like that. That's also very exciting as well.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:47:48]:
Yeah, very exciting. So you. Never a dull moment. Clearly the nad is working well for you, John, with so many different businesses.

John Gillen [00:47:55]:
For me personally, I just can't. I mean, I just could not live the life I'm leading without the NAD. Just general wellness and everything else that it gives. I mean, I just use it. I use it every day. I'm fortunate to use it every day, so I use it every day. Yeah, it's a bungalow for. Yeah, yeah.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:48:16]:
And keeping you bouncing.

John Gillen [00:48:18]:
So it's been since I discovered that a way back, as we started this conversation in 2009, it's been my whole world, you know, and what I've seen with it, you know, it's just been marvelous to see how it helps people. And that's the majority of people who try it. You know, it's a lot of medicines, it's maybe just a little number of people that get the benefits, but any day it's a large number of people that respond to it. So it's been a. It still is a big part of my life, but it's been, you know, now it's, the whole world's learning about it. I mean, that's why I started it. The more people know about it, and I'm sure the better ideas will come along with it. There's new things like the nag pen injections coming out, so it's a little bit more neat.

John Gillen [00:49:10]:
Carry it in your bag and just give yourself a little shot. Just like an insulin pen that's coming shortly as well.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:49:15]:
So, yeah, it's exciting times. Well, thank you for dedicating so much of your life to this and making it more accessible. Do you have a final ask or recommendation or any parting thoughts or message from my audience today?

John Gillen [00:49:29]:
Yeah. From my perspective, for any of your audience, let me tell the audience that if you or yourself or any your immediate family like these days, are suffering leaves becoming a little bit unmanageable due to mental health issues, certainly you must have a look at the psychedelic medicines that's coming along. That's my closing message. Because, you know, the science that's emerging, the interest and the people itself is really phenomenal. You know, it was just an absolute shame that Nixon put the war on drugs way back in the early seventies with us. Or we could have been far more advanced with its potential. So that's my closing message.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:50:17]:
Yeah, exactly. Beautiful. Well, thank you so much, John, for taking the time to come on today. It's been a pleasure speaking with you.

John Gillen [00:50:23]:
It's been lovely speaking to you, Claudia.