Claudia von Boeselager [00:00:00]:
Welcome back, dear audience, to another episode of the Longevity and Lifestyle Podcast. I'm your host, Claudia from Boeselager, here to bring you the latest insights and learnings to improve your health, life and happiness for longer. Thank you so much for being part of this tribe and wanting to be at your best each day. Please make sure to subscribe to the podcast either on YouTube or Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you listen to to not miss an episode. My guest today is Nataly Martinelli, a clinical psychologist, author and pioneer in the inte of virtual reality into mental health care. I wanted to bring you this episode after speaking with her because I thought it was such a fascinating space to be in and with really amazing results as well. So she has a passion for inspiring transformation and courage. Nataly has dedicated her career to helping individuals overcome emotional challenges and thrive.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:00:52]:
Starting with a strong foundation in psychology and business administration, Nataly further honed her expertise with advanced training from renowned institutions such as Harvard Medical School. Her unique journey bridges the gap between clinical practice and technological innovation as she has developed groundbreaking virtual reality applications tailored to therapeutic settings. As the author of Facing with Courage, Nataly offers a fresh perspective on mental health, empowering readers to confront their fears and embrace resilience. Her voice has reached audiences worldwide through nearly 200 interviews, articles and media appearances, sparking meaningful conversations about the future of mental health care. Please enjoy. Welcome to the Longevity and Lifestyle Podcast, Nataly. It's such a pleasure to have you with us today.

Nataly Martinelli [00:01:41]:
Thank you, Claudia for the invitation. It's a joy to be here today for this conversation. I'm really excited to share ideas and the learning together. Thank you.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:01:52]:
I'm so excited to have you on. I think the first time we had a proper conversation it was like two, three hours everyone else had left and we were still had more and more to talk about. So I'm so excited today and you have such a unique journey, Nataly, that I'd love if you would share what was your journey to, you know, where you are today and what were the steps that gave you the idea to incorporate virtual reality as well into mental health? But let's start with your personal journey because it is quite unique.

Nataly Martinelli [00:02:23]:
Okay. My experience in virtual reality in mental health started in a very personal way. My husband had an intensive fear of flying. He thought it was almost impossible to overcome even after trying different therapies and treatments. It's important to mention that around 25% of clients drop out of live treatments or never started because they fear facing their phobic object or related situations. I think it's important to get the difference between fear and phobia. Fear, it's a normal feelings. Fear helps us stay safe.

Nataly Martinelli [00:03:13]:
Phobia, it's a very strong fear that doesn't match the real danger. For example, being so afraid of spiders that you avoid going outside example, even.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:03:26]:
If spiders are not dangerous, it's like a debilitating fear. So it's preventing you from actually acting in normal day life. That's the extent of the fear. So that becomes then classified as a phobia, essentially. Is that right?

Nataly Martinelli [00:03:40]:
Yes. Perfect. In such cases, people often ask themselves why do I have this fear? I don't want to live like this. My husband used to feel this way. And this ongoing struggle led us to look for a practical and innovative solutions that could truly help him face this challenge. That's when I found a virtual reality. Virtual reality. It's a tool that provides a sense of immersive interaction and engagement in a 360 degree artificial environment.

Nataly Martinelli [00:04:19]:
Allows clients to observe, explore and change their own thoughts process. To use this technology, you need for example a standard computer, a specific VR headset. I can show you my.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:04:36]:
Here is it. Is it a very specific one, like a certain brand or if somebody has one, they can use the install.

Nataly Martinelli [00:04:42]:
The technology should be specific for the software license. This is the most important. Okay, something like that. Unlike methods that relay on imagination, which can be hard for logical thinkers like my husband, VR offers a clear and safe way to face fears step by step. This approach, Claudia makes it easier to deal with challenges and building confidence. It's showing us that change is possible when the right tools are used first. I didn't imagine working directly. I think this is so important to say directly with phobia in that period a long years ago.

Nataly Martinelli [00:05:29]:
But one phrase that my husband change everything. He said you have the knowledge, the practical vision, read so many, many books and a desire to help. I believe you cannot help me but also transform the lives of many others.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:05:50]:
Can you break down exactly how that process works? So you knew, okay, your husband had the phobia of flying, you were doing your clinical psychology practice or that you had as well. And so how did you come up with the idea of marrying the Were you already an active user virtual reality and you're like okay, maybe we can incorporate something or where did the idea come from?

Nataly Martinelli [00:06:10]:
Come from because it had many treatments and it's not working. So we researched different tools for don't need to imagine to be inside in the airplane. So we found it together, the virtual reality. And this makes the Treatments better and more personal. I think this is the way that we found it together. Not just thinking but put it in practical the way how you can have courage to facing the fear. I think that words that he told me actually just to return a little bit change my my career. And as I work with virtual reality I found many ways that I could making treatments better.

Nataly Martinelli [00:06:59]:
This idea inspired me in the past to team up with expert experts from different areas to create a virtual reality software for mental health. These results was a platform that includes immersive experience to treat phobias, manage anxieties and improve emotional regulations. It integrates techniques such as mindfulness exercise, diaphragmatic briefings and others. These path also inspired me to write my first book that is Phobia Facing with Courage. I wrote it as a gift for my husband and as a way to share these courage methods I developed during this process. More than a tribute, the book was designed to inspire and help others confronting their fears, transforming their lives with strength and determinations. I never imagined that along this transformative path writing would become one of my greatest missions. I remember actually a doctor who when I was a child told my parents it would be difficult for me to complete a college due to the symptoms I exhibited.

Nataly Martinelli [00:08:22]:
Today I see that our challenges are powerful gateways to skills, self awareness and the fulfillment when we embrace and act in a favor of our own growth.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:08:39]:
So let's, let's break that apart a little bit Nathalie and maybe you could share a little bit about that as well. Like overcoming personal challenges as well. So you were saying that the doctor when you were younger. Right. Was saying that you wouldn't be able to go to university, do things like that. What Maybe you can provide a bit of context around that. Explain that a bit. What motivation did that give you? Like was it I need to prove him wrong or like you know, I believe I can.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:09:04]:
Can you take us to that point in time?

Nataly Martinelli [00:09:07]:
Yes. I used to have epilepsy since I was 2 years old. And after that ex.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:09:14]:
I think it dyslexia.

Nataly Martinelli [00:09:16]:
I think to be here and talking about that. I think it's a good, good, good challenge. Always going with a fear. This is make me I think have courage. It's. I'm not looking like for the fear. I'm looking for what I need to say, not the form. I think this is so important.

Nataly Martinelli [00:09:39]:
Sometimes the people just think I need to say like that no, why do you like it? See and say big not by part. And. And after that I have Ms. Multiple sclerosis and so it's. I think this is challenges that I prove that it's possible. Everything. Everything.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:10:01]:
Yeah. And which I think is so incredible. First of all, with the epilepsy, I mean, I don't. Obviously this is going back a little bit in time. Right. I'm not saying that you're old, but, you know, back then, I think now there's more familiarity. But maybe, you know, when you had it in Brazil. I don't know what the diagnosis or prognosis was back then.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:10:19]:
Dyslexia, obviously a little bit of a different thing. And recently read a book, this is dyslexia, that says that 20% of the world population actually has dyslexia.

Nataly Martinelli [00:10:28]:
That's right.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:10:29]:
80% of people don't. And I'm reading the book and I'm like. Because my daughter has it and my mother, I'm pretty sure has it. And I was like, ah, it's genetic. I actually think I have it too. But anyway, different point with the dyslexia and then getting diagnosed with Ms. So how was that for you? And normally for most people, they would be, you know, knocked by it, they might give up, et cetera. But you, on the contrary, used it as like fuel for.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:10:52]:
For becoming this. This becoming your superpower. So can you share a little bit about that?

Nataly Martinelli [00:10:57]:
I think when you have a purpose in your life, you move it with your heart. So I love what I doing. I think it's not just for myself, for my soul. I think. I think this is. Everyone have challenges, everyone in their life. But you need to look for the opportunity that this challenge can give to you. It's not like a big deal, but a great opportunity to move forward, you know, to get better, Better and better.

Nataly Martinelli [00:11:27]:
It's not just for you say, for everyone. It's possible if I'm here. I have two graduations today. I'm author, actually. And I almost finished my third book. Starting my fourth book. So even to speak in English if you have dyslexia, it's really, really a challenging way. But why we can do it.

Nataly Martinelli [00:11:50]:
We can do whatever you wanted to do. Yeah, I have different skills. Maybe then other people can learn with each other, you know. And yes, we are together, actually. So don't put the name first. Don't put it Lex Ms. Eclectic first. Put your heart first.

Nataly Martinelli [00:12:12]:
What you like it to do for improve your soul. When you prove your soul, you touch another heart.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:12:21]:
Beautiful. Yeah.

Nataly Martinelli [00:12:23]:
And say yes for the no, because sometimes people escape for no, no, I can't. I can do that. I can say that I gonna make mistakes, but look so kind for the word no. Okay, let's see what the no wanted to see for me. Because the people just wanted to say yes. I wanted this. Yes, yes, yes, yes. No, no, no, no.

Nataly Martinelli [00:12:49]:
Stop. Just take care about the no too. Because the life, it's like this. It's not like that.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:12:58]:
Yeah, it's ups and down this way you diet.

Nataly Martinelli [00:13:02]:
So this movement is part of your life. No. Yes. No. Yes. It's like a music.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:13:10]:
Yeah. No, that's beautiful as well. And you've really incorporated mental health practices with spirituality. How did you go down that path? Was it from your own personal medical history? And how do you incorporate mental health with spirituality as well?

Nataly Martinelli [00:13:26]:
I think when accepted, you are open for everything in your life. When someone invites you and they are. I don't want to go example just why not? Why not what I needed to learn. If I go, I think you just need to change the thoughts that you used to go it. So just accept it. Accept it. The life, it give us signs all the time. All the time.

Nataly Martinelli [00:13:55]:
Many people sometimes are afraid to accept the signs. I don't want to see that. I don't want to look for that. And I think what I. I learned in this process, the life is so short because when I used to have epilepsy, I never know if you're gonna return. And this is getting me more strong. And to accept it the day, day by day, this is the future. To look for the present.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:14:26]:
Yeah. To live in the present. Right. The life is a series of now, as Eckhart Tolle says, which I love. Yeah.

Nataly Martinelli [00:14:31]:
Enjoy it. Enjoy whatever. Everything. Actually enjoy everything. Because you can learn in different ways. Dyslexia, because we can learn in different ways.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:14:44]:
Well, this is it. It's different ways. And actually, interestingly, Katie Griggs, who wrote the book, and I hope I'm not butchering her name, this is dyslexia. I highly recommend it for people to. To check it out. It's very neuro. Affirmative. She was saying that the future needs more dyslexic thinking.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:14:59]:
Doesn't necessarily mean you need to be dyslexic, but dyslexics are very good at thinking outside of the box, thinking in different ways, connecting dots where other people can't. Because with AI and ChatGPT, they, you know, fixing grammar and things like that. You don't need to just memorize spellings as much, which is harder for people with dyslexia. And instead it's more about the Creativity and innovation, et cetera, that comes with dyslexic thinking. So I think that that's a very empower to actually realize, like, hey, you have superpowers that can be used in other contexts, you know, and especially now going into the future with AI and technology as well. So I think it's, as you're saying, like, find the silver lining, find the benefits, like, what's the good out of this thing? And know that it's for a reason that, you know, you're here, you have this, and can you learn from it and grow from it as well? And one thing I really noticed with you, Nataly, is your beautiful, like, positive energy and mindset. And you just kind of exude this warmth despite having challenges and, you know, things like MS, etc. I mean, for some people, they kind of just, you know, shut down when they have that.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:16:05]:
But you're like, no, I'm going to. To tackle this differently as well and successfully. Right? So I think that really, really plays important role. You mentioned something before Nataly was the universe is always, you know, showing you signs. There's always signs along the way. And so if someone's listening and like, oh, but I don't think I have signs in my life. I don't see them. How would you recommend people be more open to noticing when signs are coming their way of, like, what they should be trying, what they should be doing? Do you have any advice?

Nataly Martinelli [00:16:39]:
Yes, I think I read a book that said to say yes. Yes, to say yes when your child asks for you, play say yes. When you looking for everything around you, say thank you. Yes, I'm gonna do it. It's easier to say here, Claudia, for you today, I don't want to. To go to make that. It's gonna be a big challenge for me. And I used to have my vision problem that, you know, because of ms, so it's easier to say.

Nataly Martinelli [00:17:16]:
But the signs don't say to me that the sign said she invited me. So why not?

Claudia von Boeselager [00:17:24]:
Yeah, why not?

Nataly Martinelli [00:17:25]:
This is the sign. Because you invite me. Just try, just try. Just do your best. Why not? Yeah, I think the people's thinking about the risk. What's the risk?

Claudia von Boeselager [00:17:42]:
And let's say, for example, if someone or, you know, has like an opportunity or two opportunities, right. Or whatever it might be, but trying to decide because how do you allocate your time? Right? That's the one resource that we're all limited with. Although there's another conversation around what is time? But we won't go there right now. What what would you say is the best way to assess opportunities? If there's, you know, two competing opportunities. So you need to dedicate either a time to A or time to project B. What's the best way? Do you like tune into things?

Nataly Martinelli [00:18:17]:
I think the way close when it's not for you. You just need accepted that.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:18:23]:
Yeah.

Nataly Martinelli [00:18:24]:
Example. You used to have example many clients, but now change it. Have just a few clients. Okay. But in another way you never stopped writing. Example. You never. You can stop writing.

Nataly Martinelli [00:18:39]:
Can't, Can't, Can't. You have simple. Some, some. Some. A lot of ideas actually you wanted to put on the paper. Okay, just go this way. Why are you getting sister in that? It's possible you can return it to have many clients another period. But yeah, when you just accept it.

Nataly Martinelli [00:18:57]:
Okay, now I need to stop just writing. It's the life is getting more light, you know, you not get oppression. I need to do that. I need to that. No, just. Okay, let's go. Let's go the way. Not fighting.

Nataly Martinelli [00:19:09]:
Not fight.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:19:10]:
Yeah. Not resisting it as well. That's interesting. So thinking of a conversation with the friends and maybe for people also listening like context. So you were saying you have tons of clients now there's less clients, but you have more time for writing. And I have another friend also who has a few less clients at the moment we're having this conversation and maybe it's opening up to say use the time to be writing more as well. So I think that that's. That's.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:19:32]:
I think part of like noticing the signs of. Okay, if this isn't so busy is this isn't as usual like what is it? Open up the door. What is it giving me time to do and to focus on for other things too. So I think that's a really interesting point. Yeah. So was it through your husband that you came started down the path to understanding phobias better?

Nataly Martinelli [00:19:53]:
Yes, that's true. And now we are here actually leaving London. Now he can travel.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:19:59]:
I got on the plane, he's fine.

Nataly Martinelli [00:20:03]:
So. Yes, because during the sections, not specifically with him, but with my clients example, clients are placed in scenarios that are closer to reality and interactive simulation challenges and at the same time relaxing situations. So virtual reality, I think it's important to say it creates a safe and controlling space. It helps clients face their fears slowly, step by step, step. Like creating new habits. So this reduce anxiety and building confidence. So it's important to emphasize that virtual reality does not replace a traditional therapy methods, but acts as a complementary tools that accelerate Treatments process. So when integrated with conventional techniques, it provides unique opportunity to enhance results offering a practical and effective approach to various emotions and behaviors.

Nataly Martinelli [00:21:06]:
Challenge I think this tool Claudia represents a significant advancement in the field of mental health as integrate visual and auditory and make the therapeutic process more engaging and effective. Recent studies, I think it's important to say have shown that VR can improve learning and the retentions. For instance, I stud compared the effectiveness of virtual reality with traditional platforms like a computer tablets revealing a 10% increase in memory retentions among participants using VR. Imagine these two for. For dyslexia we have this kind of issues even for the memory and especially.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:21:57]:
The visuals as well which help dyslexic people tend to be visual as well. And so that's across the board. Was that study done on adults or on children?

Nataly Martinelli [00:22:05]:
Another adults.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:22:07]:
Okay. And so 10 memory increase from the.

Nataly Martinelli [00:22:10]:
Research memory retentions among participants using VR. Yes.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:22:15]:
How long did they use it for? Was it daily? Like what was the protocol? Do you know?

Nataly Martinelli [00:22:19]:
Actually I need to double check. I need to double check. It's a long time.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:22:24]:
We'll put it in the show notes so people can have a look at it too. But I think, I mean especially you know, as we age and people are like oh no, my memory's gone, etc. If there are different innovative modalities for people to use. Yes, I think it's, you know, 10 is a lot, right. You can remember 10 and I wonder does it like is it cumulative? Right. So if you keep improving 10% every year, you're going to be have a hundred percent memory retention would be amazing as well.

Nataly Martinelli [00:22:53]:
Yeah, I think I have. Some researchers also suggested that virtual reality can improve neuroplasticity. I think it's important to say Claudio encouraging the brain to form a new connection. Yes. As clients practice and reinforcing positive behaviors in virtual settings. In education's contest VR Special. Beneficial.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:23:21]:
Beneficial. Beneficial.

Nataly Martinelli [00:23:22]:
Thanks for my legs. Neurodiverses individuals such as those with autism dyslexia by improving interactive and multi sensory environments that aligns with their unique way waste of learning. Actually I think virtual reality is more than a tool. It's a bridge to safer, faster and more personalities in therapeutic education experience.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:24:02]:
So is it all like are there several different in the space like you you came up basically for the virtual reality for phobias or also for other areas as well?

Nataly Martinelli [00:24:11]:
Yes, for another areas. Actually I think it's important to to say many people's asking me what's the difference between therapy with or without VR? I Think I'm gonna answer after your question. The answer is really simple. VR helps people absorb therapeutic context better than using multiple sense at the same time. This thinking let's gonna think example I think I love examples thinking A chocolate cake therapy is the cake great when made with right ingredients like knowledge, experience and care for the client. Now imagine adding a rich chocolate frosting that makes the cake even better. That's what VR does for therapy. VR doesn't replace traditional therapy.

Nataly Martinelli [00:25:06]:
Just like a frosting doesn't replace the cake, it's an extra layer that makes the experience richer and more engaging. VR has been increasing using mental health Claudia in positive results in conditions such as that. Are you asking me example Autism, phobia, depression, panic disorder, post traumatic stress disorder, acute pain. I remember a good research about that. Mindfulness among others. For example, in post traumatic treatments, VR allows clients to safely revisit and process traumatic experience in a controlled environment. In mindfulness training, VR immerses using calming landscapes enhancing focus and relationship. By creating immersive and controlled environment, VR enables clients to experience situations that would be difficult to recreate it in a real life example that I told you about my, my husband with an airplane.

Nataly Martinelli [00:26:22]:
It's so hard. You know you can.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:26:24]:
Yeah, you couldn't try him out in an actual airplane and he's like no, no, I want to leave. And you know yeah, we're stuck in here. Yeah.

Nataly Martinelli [00:26:32]:
This example actually you could gradually face each step for the experience from entering an airport to taking off in a scenario that was adjusted in a real time by the therapist. While observing the scenario, briefing techniques and the relaxation exercise were introduced to help deactivate the synthetic nervous systems activated the parasympathetic.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:27:04]:
Parasympathetic nervous system.

Nataly Martinelli [00:27:06]:
Like shifting the balance of a sizzle. It's like that. Like a siso. This shift promotes a state of calming reduce anxiety stress while enhancing the therapeutic exercise. In my first book Claudia the Phobias Face with Courage I mentioned that the case study of Clara. Her name has been changed, but she's a real client. Clara shares that just thinking about going to the hospital made her feel scary. Really, really scary.

Nataly Martinelli [00:27:42]:
Because of this, she avoided blood test for four years. Around four years and didn't take vaccine for six years. I think that's that number. In our sessions we use virtual reality to simulate hospital scenarios like getting a blood test example. This helps her practice managing her symptoms in a safe and control environment. This helps her practice to manage her symptoms over time. It's really, really nice. She.

Nataly Martinelli [00:28:20]:
She learned how to handle her emotions and the physical sensations step by step. Thankfully, after a treatment plane that combine different techniques include virtual reality. It's not like just virtual reality. It's important to say Clara overcomes her fears. Now she can even donate blood. So it's amazing.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:28:44]:
So I wonder Nazi just. Just to ask there with, you know, is it because they're doing the visual simulation of what it would be like to go into the hospital to wait to know that you're going to be picked by needle like things like this. Right. And you. The first time they do it even in virtual reality, I could imagine that it triggers, you know, the increase in heart rate, et cetera. Like it must trigger still fear in virtual reality. I think, yes. I don't know.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:29:10]:
And then each time they do it again and again, they realize, okay, I'm safe, I'm okay, I'm safe. And so it's rewiring that neural pathway to trigger I'm in danger. To actually realize, like I'm safe, I'm okay. I can stay in the parasympathetic. Is that what's happening and how many sessions are needed needed or it depends on the client. But super innovative.

Nataly Martinelli [00:29:31]:
I have a study example in area. In the area like specifically for phobias. There is a study with 23 peoples with spider phobias and use VR. I think this is very interesting to say. During their sessions, participants surely got close to a virtual spider is step by step. These results was impressive. 83% of them show it much less fear just using VR. Okay.

Nataly Martinelli [00:30:04]:
Some even managed to get closer to a real tarantula with little or not anxiety. And have another one. Another stud that involves 18 volunteers with a fear of hate. Yes. And acrophobia.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:30:24]:
Fear of height. Yes, acrophobia. Yeah.

Nataly Martinelli [00:30:27]:
And participants underwent blend scan before. So nice. And after a virtual exposed therapy treatment. DVR simulations involve walking on a transparent platform. Imagine okay. Wow. Above a candle of 800 meters. And after 80 exposure sections 8.

Nataly Martinelli [00:30:55]:
Okay. The results show it significant improvement in acrophobia symptoms along with change in brain metabolism in areas related to anxiety and fear. This study suggests that virtual expose therapy can lead to neurobiological changes in the brain. Yeah.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:31:18]:
Because the brain doesn't know what's real or not. Right. That's why they say like mindset is so big. You know, being careful. Your nlp.

Nataly Martinelli [00:31:24]:
Right.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:31:25]:
What the words you use. Because it doesn't know. Is it. You're just saying it or are you really. You know, people say like oh, I'm stupid or something like don't say that because your brain will show you examples of you being like that as well. I mean walking at such a high height, even in virtual reality I'm already like. Not that I'm. I would consider myself scared of heights but definitely, you know, on a clear transparent platform like a very, very high level.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:31:48]:
You know, I think your body triggers a bit of fight or flight. So it's amazing that they can go in just a few sessions from terror essentially like being so scared to being relaxed. Walking on a platform like this.

Nataly Martinelli [00:32:02]:
Yes. That's phenomenal for the pain. I think it's not just for phobia that I remember that I would like to say about the pain, the acute pain. One study show it that virtual reality therapy lowered activities in the insula insula part of the brain. That sense of pain. It also reduce activity in the. In anterior anterior cingulate cortex.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:32:31]:
Yes.

Nataly Martinelli [00:32:32]:
Which controls emotion reactions to pain. Yeah. And they study found changes in the fronted cortex, the brain area that helps manage pains. So actually this is amazing. Imagine these tools in at hospitals.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:32:51]:
Yeah, exactly. For people with chronic pain as well. And it's interesting as you were talking, I've had guests on who also work in particularly in the US with psychedelic assisted therapy. Also with like ketamine and things like this too. Also for treating chronic pain but even PTSD etc. So I even wonder and I don't know has there been studies or do you know if there's anyone who's done like psychedelic assisted therapy coupled with virtual reality therapy as well?

Nataly Martinelli [00:33:18]:
Yes, I said that I. I read a few few weeks ago actually studied with 57 peoples showing virtual reality can help explore expertly in a new way. People said they felt strong emotions and had insights about themselves after using virtual reality. They compare it is to mystical experience with. See.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:33:51]:
Psilocybin.

Nataly Martinelli [00:33:52]:
Perfect.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:33:53]:
Yeah.

Nataly Martinelli [00:33:55]:
Found in mushrooms. The VR experience use lights, sounds and movement to make people feel connected to something bigger. And bring calm and deep thoughts about life. And propose. So imagine they compare it a mystical experience with psilocybin. So imagine the power of these tools, you know, even for that situations. And it was like a. Interesting research is like 57 people showings that it helps him for this way.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:34:35]:
So I know these are outcomes I think are so amazing. I mean also in the psychedelic space of you know, SSRIs. Right. So the antidepressants that people are put on and there is a case obviously for different circumstances etc it's shown that they're very quick to be put on them. For example even women with menopausal symptoms are thought to need an ssri, which is obviously maybe looking at the hormones first, but that's a different conversation. And so the effectiveness of the SSRI is if you compare it to a psychedelic assisted therapy. I'm more familiar with the research on that. I mean you're looking at outcomes with the psychedelic assisted therapy of like 70, 80 plus percent success.

Nataly Martinelli [00:35:14]:
Yes.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:35:15]:
Versus with SSRIs. It's just, you know, maintaining managing symptoms. There's no reversal of symptoms or success from it as well. So it sounds so promising with the virtual reality too that it's another modality that is so powerful and strong to help people with certain mental health things. And you know, it's such a huge topic coming out of COVID I think there was a real mental health pandemic that was coming about and you know, for phobias, but also for. For other things as well. A question, Nataly. What is the virtual reality therapy not for.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:35:48]:
Are there certain mental health conditions where you would say it wouldn't be very helpful or beneficial?

Nataly Martinelli [00:35:54]:
All those. Virtual reality is a powerful tool. It's important. Claudia, it's good question to note that in some cases it can cause nausea, dizziness. This happens because the eyes see movement but the body stay still. Yeah, they avoid these therapeutics can make sections shorter and slower based on how each person feels. Develops are working to improve VR by slowing down virtual movements and making the image better. This helps reduce discomfort.

Nataly Martinelli [00:36:35]:
It's also important to know know that a very small percent of people's around about 20 to 25% may have seizures caused by light, especially those with epilepsy. For me it's opposite actually. I never feel nothing. I just feel bad good things actually.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:37:00]:
Yeah.

Nataly Martinelli [00:37:00]:
So but it's important to mention because this is and Studs shows that with the right adjustments, over 90% of people can use virtual reality without major issues. So I think it's a high number actually.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:37:19]:
But is there like for certain conditions. So you mentioned like for phobias it's very beneficial for ptsd, autism, like let's say schizophrenia, bipolar, certain conditions like that. Can virtual reality help or is that not really a use case And I did help in.

Nataly Martinelli [00:37:36]:
In different ways. Yes. In different ways. Yes.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:37:40]:
Yeah. So for people interested in learning more and maybe trying it themselves, like are there many practitioners in the world Nataly that use this or where should people go to to find out more about it?

Nataly Martinelli [00:37:54]:
Actually there are many places companies actually they are developing software for different abilities different actually approach so example and even that there Are a lot of researchers doing at the same point that I remember example. I studied with 15 peoples facing several depression. I think it's important to add this use a virtual reality section lasting three to eight minutes over six weeks. Participants attended one sections per week. In these sessions they comfort a crying avatar by speaking a compassionate word. Later the rule is reversed and participants experience receiving compassion words from another virtual avatar. The results show it a big drop in several of depression and self criticism. At the same time it was a significant increase in self critical compassions showing that the power of VR can be in a therapy.

Nataly Martinelli [00:39:01]:
So returning your question about you can found example. There's software specific for psychology even for use at the hospital. We have specific companies. So even for I have the example that is study that I told you about the. The energies, the spirituality. Anyway example have a company specific to develop this kind of software. You know and this is. We can found in the Internet.

Nataly Martinelli [00:39:29]:
It's. It's easier and you have to pay. You still have to pay a. A fee like per. Per month. You can use it this program and you just need to have the headset for that.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:39:44]:
Do people need to purchase the headset or could you rent it?

Nataly Martinelli [00:39:47]:
You have to purchase. Depends.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:39:49]:
Okay.

Nataly Martinelli [00:39:49]:
The company and the company that I used to work it actually that I created. It's like you pay for monthly and you have. Yes. All the environments and you can access even the protocols how to use it. And you have you know, after the sections you have some exercise. So. Yes. You have everything in the package included in that too.

Nataly Martinelli [00:40:13]:
Yes.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:40:14]:
Yeah. And if somebody's looking for a practitioner like a therapist that's trained in this. Is there something they should look out for any certain type of qualification? Is there like a gold standard or. No, just somebody who's trained in virtual reality.

Nataly Martinelli [00:40:28]:
Just a tool that I used to do some courses. You know, party peoples have analogy to. To how to work it. We use these tools and the sections. But you don't need to have some you know degrees specific for doing that because it's like a tool to complement a therapy.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:40:49]:
Yeah. Okay. So they. They once they have it then the. The software is already programmed in such a way that it's helpful. Okay. Amazing. So I'd love to touch on your book again.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:40:59]:
I know you wrote it as a tribute to your husband. You were saying as well phobia facing with courage for people maybe with phobias. And I mean just thinking myself personally I have friends who have you know, fear of flying, fear of heights. I'm sure some other People have other ones. At one stage in my life I had a fear of deep water. I think I watched too many Jaws movies when I was little thinking the shark is going to come. Thankfully that's that's true as well. Who would you recommend to read the the book?

Nataly Martinelli [00:41:28]:
Everyone. Not specifically for the peoples have some phobia. I think the book is for you know inspire a courage inside of you. You know, to make more it's. I created the courage method to help people facing emotional challenge not specific for phobia. Life involves building Just see the first word for the the word courage. Life involves building confidence and I will explain how to get that. Obtain o O Obtain emotional indebtedness R Relax and breathing A Accepting your emotions D Guiding your thoughts E.

Nataly Martinelli [00:42:10]:
Establishing a plan. Taking one small step at a time to move forward and finding motivation. Motivation and joy. Celebrate because motivate M Encourage in English, in Portuguese M. Okay and then motivate enjoy Celebrate small wins and proof your process. Imagine if I put this. I put it in my book and explain each word. Actually it's not for someone has a phobia.

Nataly Martinelli [00:42:49]:
It's for everyone.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:42:51]:
It's universal. Yeah. Beautiful. Let's talk about future and you know what what looking toward towards the future. Are there any specific goals that you hope to achieve in the world of mental health or how do you see the future of mental health and what are some things that you see developing that you are excited about that we talking about?

Nataly Martinelli [00:43:14]:
I truly believe it. We are talking a lot about virtual reality. I think it's good to say again has the potential to transform your mental health care in the present and the future. As technology improves, I think VR will become easier to use, more affordable and more personalized. This would more people to benefit from it either in therapy, session hospitals, educations, even at home. Why not? In my opinion VR also shows incredible promise in education. I think this is most important for me. It's really.

Nataly Martinelli [00:43:52]:
I think because of my background. Especially for neurodiverse individuals like those with dyslexia. Studs suggestions VR can improve focus, understand and engagement by offering interactive and multi sensory experience. For example, I believe immersive environments can turn abstract ideas into something tangible and makes easier for studies with dyslexia to process information. Like studies with dyslexia might find it's hard to understand how planets example orbits the sun. With virtual reality they can enter an environment where they see the planet. Imagine like if I had this in.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:44:45]:
When I'm going around.

Nataly Martinelli [00:44:46]:
Yes, amazing and moving and watch the solar System. Wow. You know what was amazing? If they were there he can escape it, you know.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:44:58]:
Yeah. In the solar system sliding on Saturn's rings.

Nataly Martinelli [00:45:05]:
The concept easier to understand. I can look at imagine if I had these tools when I was child.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:45:12]:
It's gonna really.

Nataly Martinelli [00:45:14]:
It's not a very specific for the peoples who has this life relaxing, you know, for everyone.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:45:20]:
For children in general. Yeah. I mean how cool is that to experience the solar system and fly in outer space to be like ah, there's Pluto, there's. Well it's not even a planet anymore but Saturn and Jupiter etc. Yeah. Do you think that that could be a standardized tool for teaching and education in the future?

Nataly Martinelli [00:45:37]:
Yes. For the present. For the present.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:45:40]:
For the present, yes. Yeah.

Nataly Martinelli [00:45:41]:
Even also thinking for hospital could use in more VR to provide relaxed environments because people can't escape imagine or destruction techniques during treatments making the experience less stressful and more manageable. I feel VR is on the path to become a powerful tool for building more inclusive and effective approaches to mental health and well being. I also believe this technology can help many, many, many students who learn differently. Differently. Yes, I think so. So I think this is for the present and the future. Answering your your question.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:46:24]:
No, I think it's. It's very exciting. I know speaking with someone who was like oh, it's an escapism. Right. So some people. So maybe critiques of virtual reality. It's like you're escaping reality instead of let's say going inside. What would you say to a criticism like that?

Nataly Martinelli [00:46:43]:
I I show it many researchers that helps in different ways. So it's not about me my opinion, it's about researchers.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:46:55]:
Sure.

Nataly Martinelli [00:46:56]:
So I think we have this answer. So it's a rich therapy. I think when he used it correctly when way the correct way. I think we can improve many things. So yeah.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:47:07]:
And it's only a few minutes. Right. You were saying it's like a 8 minute, 10 minutes.

Nataly Martinelli [00:47:11]:
Not recommend using more than 20 minutes.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:47:13]:
So it's.

Nataly Martinelli [00:47:14]:
It's a short period. You know when they. If you. You working with you know the balance of your hormones, you know, even the parasympathetic sympathetic. You know, you have to manage. You have it great the good way. You know, you just use the traditional tools. You just put it in aviation as.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:47:36]:
A layer on top. Yeah. Like you were mentioning. Amazing. Nataly, for my listeners interested in understanding more about increasing their knowledge around sort of different modalities particularly maybe even around virtual reality for mental health conditions is there like you know, books. Obviously your book. Right. But any Other resources or online resources you would recommend they start with?

Nataly Martinelli [00:48:02]:
Yes, I can. I can. I made some documents about just researchers and I can share if you like it. I can translate. It's in Portuguese actually but I can translate for English and you can found in this. In this. A lot of. A lot of.

Nataly Martinelli [00:48:23]:
A lot of researches. So yes, it's possible I can share with you. You let it just translate for an English and yeah. Share with you or do you have.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:48:33]:
It on a website somewhere? Do you have a website where you send.

Nataly Martinelli [00:48:36]:
I have it and I can send it and I can put it there. Some things I have a many. I did almost 200 interviews. So yes and almost for VR. So I think you have in. In English and Portuguese there. So we can. You can see searches and yes, it.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:48:56]:
Starts and people can translate. What's the. What's the. What's the URL for your website, Nataly? And we can link it in the show notes as well.

Nataly Martinelli [00:49:07]:
Www.Nataly martinelli that.com Perfect.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:49:17]:
And Nataly is with a Y at the end. But for everyone listening or watching, we will link it in the show notes Notes So you can find it there as well. And where can people follow what you're up to on social media? Do you have any social media handle that you would like to share with people?

Nataly Martinelli [00:49:30]:
Yes, my Instagram. It's like my naming. It's like the same. Yes. Keep in touching. Keep in touch.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:49:38]:
Perfect. Yeah, we'll. We'll link that in the show notes as well. Nataly, do you have any final ask or recommendation or any parting thoughts or message for my audience today?

Nataly Martinelli [00:49:51]:
Yes, if I could leave one message, it would be about the word that moves me. Then we started to talking about courage. Courage. It's not the absence of fear. It's about moving forward despite. It's about believing that every step, no matter how small, is proof of your strength. So when you let yourself feel with kindness and acceptance, you open the door to real growth. Courage isn't just about facing fear.

Nataly Martinelli [00:50:33]:
It's about growing beyond and becoming the best version of yourself.

Claudia von Boeselager [00:50:43]:
So here's to more courage. That's beautiful. Thank you so much Nataly for coming on today. Thank you everyone for listening and checking out the podcast. It's been such a pleasure.

Nataly Martinelli [00:50:51]:
Thank you, Claudia. Thank you for having me.