Claudia von Boeselager: Welcome to the Longevity & Lifestyle Podcast Julia, it's such a pleasure to have you on today. 

Julia Mirer: Thank you for having me, Claudia. 

Claudia von Boeselager: A pleasure. So I'd like to start with a question on microdosing of psychedelics. What exactly is microdosing for my listeners who haven't come across this before? What it is used for, and why is this such a tremendously growing trend?

Julia Mirer: The term microdosing refers to taking a sub-perceptual dose of psychedelics, meaning that, if three and a half grams of mushrooms is considered a classic high dose trip, then, you know, one 10th of that would be a microdose. And now, over time, we're talking about a microdose being even lower because you can technically feel 0.3 of a gram, 0.2 of a gram, and for me personally, I like 0.1 of a gram, which is about a hundred milligrams as the microdose, because it is more likely to be sub-perceptual, but the more connected a person becomes to themselves, the more likely they are to notice even this low dose. So it's, kind of, like the more you microdose in the beginning, the less you need it later.

And the way I like to describe this, my neurologist friends hate when I talk like this, because they're, like, this is not how the brain works. Just to explain it simply I like to put it like this. Let's say that, at any given time, you are using 10% of the connections in your brain to process your day-to-day life. And that is a very small amount. And with a microdose you get to about 11%. And what does this look like? Colors are a little brighter, music sounds a little bit differently, your inner critic is a little quieter, and you're a little more creative. So these little things, when you take advantage of this increase creativity or increase in our kindness, then you could really start to change your reality.

You get to, little by little, kind of, process the things in your life that maybe aren't serving you. You know, when you microdose, some of these things can come to light. Because again, you're using a little bit more of your brain. And what's interesting with microdosing is that there's, I mean there's a lot of different psychedelics that are currently being used and each one of them has, there's been discussion about micro-dosing each one of them.

And the benefit, I think of, particularly for people who really like control, people who, kind of, like the way that they are, the way that they think, for these people, they may be curious about psychedelics, but they don't want to relinquish control. And the microdosing allows them to, kind of, dip their toes in the water and become familiar with that landscape with, like, the inner landscape, and, this way, the psychedelics can work gradually, so it's not as jarring of an experience. 

And, when I say they could work gradually, psychedelics and particularly in psilocybin because that's my area of interest. So the real gift of psilocybin is to connect you back to yourself and to heal your trauma. And whenever I say this thing about trauma, people are like, oh, but I had, like, a really good life. And then I break it down a little bit more and I say, well, trauma is any negative experience that happens in a state of relative helplessness. So if you are in a relationship, and this is the example that I often give, if you're in a relationship and you're staying together for the kids, you're relatively helpless.

If you're in a job that you hate, but you need it to pay rent, you're relatively helpless. We were all children at some point. And as children, at baseline, we're relatively helpless. So any negative experience that happens to you as a kid can be traumatic. It's really your perception of what happened, it's your reaction to what happened, and these little microtraumas can start to shape your personality over time. 

When something happens to you, it changes how you view yourself. It changes how you interact with the world. And some of these are maladaptive. Some of these biased belief systems that develop really start to shift your personality into someone that's not trusting, someone that's anxious, all of these things, and psychedelics can help you address those traumas.

When you take a microdose, you're able to, kind of, take a peek at the traumas that might come up so that you don't have what sometimes people can experience which is this bad trip, where they take too much, mindset is wrong, they're not in the right setting, and now it's, you know, this big uncomfortable experience. 

So that, I don't think that that's necessary for everyone, so microdosing allows you to peek in. It allows you to decide, are you ready to go deeper. And I think sometimes microdosing can actually help people uncover certain things that allow them to take that next step and be like, you know what, I think I need therapy. 

Claudia von Boeselager: Thank you for that amazing explanation. And I think the question would be also the therapy, would that be also psychedelic-assisted therapy or could that just be normal talk therapy or a combination of both? 

Julia Mirer: So I use the term therapy kind of loosely because I think integration is the more appropriate term. 

So talk therapy, you know, there's a lot of people that have been in talk therapy for decades. And if you're still talking about your story, you're stuck in it. And it's not until you start changing your narrative that the therapy that you're doing is going to be effective. And the therapy can be talk therapy like you said. There's a new line of therapy called ACT, Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, where it's less talking about the story and it's like, okay, this happened, what's next? 

And then, different things, somatic processing, EMDR, ecotherapy, you know, going outside into nature, all of these things could be really beneficial. The reason why they don't work is a lot of times people are so resistant to it that, by the time they come to a new therapist, a new modality, they were already so discouraged that it's that much less likely to work.

And this is another cool thing with psychedelics is that they make you more receptive to new information. So the same therapy that you would have, you know, turned away three months prior, all of a sudden, maybe you're like, oh, there is something to that. Okay, let me try this. Let me try journaling. Let me exercise because I actually felt really good when I exercised. You know, the microdose makes you aware of these little, the subtle changes that the things you do, like the subtle impacts that the things you do, have on your state of being. 

Claudia von Boeselager: I'd love to just take a step back, Julia, and talk a bit about your journey. I mean, you're a fully fledged trained medical doctor that has taken a different path. Can you talk a little bit about why you originally decided to go into medicine and where that journey brought you to bring you to where you are today?
 
Julia Mirer: Yeah, so, age seven, I want to be a doctor. I want to help people. My father's a doctor. I was, like, this is the path. Two years into my pediatric residency, so, you know, after we do our medical school, you get your medical degree, then you do three years of training, you take your licensing exams, and then you go off and you practice. 

And I'm two years into my three-year residency, and I realize that I'm not buying what I'm selling. And to the, I always joke, the complete horror of my Russian-Jewish doctor father, I walked away, no license to practice, a medical degree, but this awareness that the tools we have aren't working and we're missing half a toolbox. And no idea where the answers were.

So I resigned, I moved, I started looking into all the things that resonated. So anything I picked up, like mindfulness-based stress reduction, ayurveda, nutrition, movement, things they don't teach us in med school, or at least not in any significant capacity. All of these things. And, simultaneously, I discovered psychedelics.

And I discovered them by accident. And then very quickly realized, oh my goodness, this is not a recreational drug. This is medicine. And that peaked a curiosity in me that I haven't felt, I dunno, ever. And I started to, first, I started exploring, my field research. And I was exploring this through the lens of a doctor because I was looking at it like, okay, I'm feeling these things, I'm thinking these things, where can this be applied in the existing paradigm? What are we missing in the existing one?

And I started to really pull together, all these different concepts. And so, now, you know, to me, when I look at a person I'm seeing a medical perspective, I'm seeing the psychospiritual, I'm seeing, like, the chakras, like, what's your diet, all these things. And to me, that's so much cooler and so much more holistic an approach than what I was experiencing. 

But, yeah, so when I resigned, I started looking into all of this. I realized that psilicybin is where my passion lies, but I realized psilicybin is illegal. And so I was like, okay, cool, well, here's where I stand on, you know, preparation, and integration with psychedelics. I learned all these things. I'm like, what am I going to do with this. Nothing's legal.

I was apprenticing at the time with a cannabis doctor and I was like, people are getting better. They're getting off of their opioids. They're on cannabis and they're off their psych meds, I was like, what kind of medicine is this?

It was really cool because I didn't know about this, you know, we don't talk about it as much as we should, like, the whole plant medicine. So I was apprenticing with her and then she told me, she's like, oh, we actually do ketamine as well. And I was like, oh, how do you do it? And when she told me, I was like, oh man, this is the Wild Wild West. There's all these different, like, ways to use this. I started looking online, I put together a PowerPoint, and I said to her, I was like, hey, here's your opportunity to be a gold standard, bring in the therapy, like, you're going to do so much. And then she did. And I was like, wait a second. There's some value to this stuff. I was like, my field research is, like, can serve me and the medical community.

And I started to talk as much as I could to people. Then Corona happened. So everyone was on a webinar. Like, I connected with anyone that I could. Because, at the end of the day, I have a medical degree that gets my foot into doors that it doesn't belong in. And then my responsibility, I felt, to learn about these subjects in such a way that I could speak eloquently to those people who can then create change. 

Claudia von Boeselager: That's really beautiful, by the way, I really like that.

Julia Mirer: Thank you. Thank you. And I mean because, and it's funny because we can't do anything alone. And I think psychedelics will usher this kind of collaborative nature back because we need it. And you know, to me, I was like, okay, cool, I have all these thoughts. I have these ideas, and I have the stance on certain things. Who cares? Unless more people are talking about it, it doesn't matter what one person's opinion really is. And in community is also where we heal. So, like, I started seeing the value of community, like, more than ever, you know, in the context of COVID. 

So for me, it was essentially. You know, with all the webinars that I went to, reached out to everyone I resonated with, I started learning where did the experts stand on certain topics? And where's this industry going? And seeing it from all these different perspectives allowed me to, early this year, say like, okay, I see where we're going. I see where I could be of value, and I'm ready to step into the space in whatever capacity I'm needed in. 

Claudia von Boeselager: Excellent. And what a transition as well. And the fact that you actually took action.

You know, I have a bunch of doctor friends, and it's such a long slog and journey to get there. So to just let it go and walk away, especially with having a father who was so passionate about it, is very courageous and brave of you, Julia, so well done. 

So you were saying, I like the analogy of, you know, increasing from 10% to 11% and I have neuroscientists friends. I'm sure that they're like, what? Where is this coming from? But I think for most people to just get a grip to it. 

And the idea of increasing awareness, that colors become brighter, that creativity increases, I mean, it's just so fascinating, but if I'm hearing you correctly, what you're saying is that it's so incremental that it's slow, it's cautious, it's not, you know, going full flow and into psychedelics where a lot of people, you know, might be quite scared about. 

The increase in creativity, for example. Could you describe that a little bit more and how that can be used in different scenarios? 'Cause you're talking a lot about trauma, but I think that microdosing is also quite popular for day-to-day, be it entrepreneurs, people in, you know, hedge funds, et cetera, et cetera.

Can you talk a little bit more about that from a performance perspective? 

Julia Mirer: Absolutely. So the thing is that we all know what we need to do in order to live better lives, healthier lives, more fulfilling lives. We just don't really have the activation energy to do it. And what the microdose - I oftentimes tell people that the microdose is just giving you the energy to do the things you know you need to do.

And with people with depression, that is so important because a lot of times they've done all this inner work and, like, they've studied and they've tried, and they have all these tools, but they can't apply them. So this kind of allows them to apply it. For people looking at this for creativity, for all of that, it's a double-edged sword, yes. You may take a microdose and you're very creative, but then a few hours later, all of a sudden these feelings start to come up and now you have to deal with that. 

But what I always tell people is the mushrooms are very intelligent species. Let's call them that. And they want to help you. They know, like, okay, you want to feel better. I'm going to help you feel better. Most of the times people will take a microdose, in their mind they're thinking I want to feel better. That is an intention. So when you set the intention, whatever it is that you set your intention for, they're going to help you do.

So if it's for creativity, I always suggest people set your intention, what is it that you want to get done today? And then, throughout the day, what you notice is you have this, like, for the next six to eight hours, you have this accountability buddy who, kind of, reminds you what your goal for the day was.

So if you have a sad thought, it's like, wait a second, not today. You know, like, oh, okay my bad, not today. If it's creativity, you tell yourself, okay, I want to get this part done of my project. And there becomes this interesting flow state it's like an induced flow state, where you're doing the things you need to do throughout the day and all of a sudden the task you needed to get done is already done. Like, it kind of just becomes a very fluid state of being, and that's when the dose is active. So let's, you know, you take it for the next six to eight hours. It's active. You're doing these things. You may approach the same problem that you had with, let's say, a design project at work, and all of a sudden you have a new creative approach on how to design it in a way to account for the issue that you couldn't get over.

So it's like it allows you to see things differently so that you can come up with creative solutions. For artistic work as well. Like, very creative, very flow state and, so that's why it's beneficial. Now, if you don't love your job, then you might take a microdose and all of a sudden you're very aware of how much you want to be outside, you don't like your office, the co-workers are making you, like, you know, are frustrating you. That's not the best situation to be in. So sometimes people will say that, oh yeah, I microdosed but it wasn't quite doing it for me. And I'll ask the most like, well, what did it do for you? They're like, well, you know, I got a little anxious. And this is oftentimes where I come across people who say, yeah, I stopped microdosing and yeah, I tried it out, it was okay. And when you dig in further and it's like, well, what were you doing when you were anxious? Who were you with? Because this is actually not a side effect, this is actually an opportunity.

Because, again, the mushrooms are an intelligent being, and they know, like, okay, you want to feel better or whatever it is, or you want to be productive. But after a couple of weeks, let's say, of microdosing, they know you're ready. Like, okay, you're ready now to see why you were, you know, had writer's block or you're ready to see why you were upset. And that's when that anxiety comes. That's the call to pay attention to what's happening because if you adjust whatever it is that's causing you anxiety now, that's how you unlock your better life. That's how you move forward. 

Not everyone's ready for that. So that's my goal always with microdosing, give them the full spectrum because everyone's hyping it up saying it's all great, it's all this. It is really great. But it's really great when you're ready to work with it, rather than thinking it's going to do something for you.

Claudia von Boeselager: That's such excellent advice. So I think, you know, knowing that framework and knowing that it will amplify, kind of, your deepest secrets almost as well, and bring those to the forefront. And to use it in the right environment. And maybe, you know, do it in a non-work environment as a first step, just in case, 'cause you don't want to have to run out of the office mid-workday, or something like that. So that, that's really, really helpful. 

Before we dig into a bit more what you're currently doing, I'd love to ask you some rapid-fire questions. So, Julia, who is the first person that comes to mind when you hear the word successful and why?

Julia Mirer: So Pamela Kryskow. She is a physician in Canada. I met her actually early last year and she became this beacon of light for me. She is the epitome of what a physician can be in this space. Not just a healer, but an advocate, an educator. She loves what she does. She shows up fully. I mean, I have goosebumps right now, even talking about it, when we, you bring this woman onto a Zoom call and it's like you meditated for an hour. 

Claudia von Boeselager: Wow. 

Julia Mirer: Just the way that she sees the space. And she's always, kind of, been a person that I will check in with as a reminder of why I'm doing what I'm doing and of what's possible. 

Claudia von Boeselager: Amazing. How do you spell her name? 
Her last name? Kryskow? 

Julia Mirer: K R Y S K O W.

Claudia von Boeselager: Kryskow. Okay. Perfect. And we'll, I will include that in the show notes. 
Do you have a favorite quote or piece of advice that was a real game changer for you? 

Julia Mirer: The experience is necessary to add emotional understanding to intellectual belief. 

Claudia von Boeselager: Oh, wow. Very powerful. Is that your quote or...? 

Julia Mirer: I want to say it's Joe Dispenza. I think that's who it was. 

Claudia von Boeselager: Okay. Amazing. 

Do you have any particular morning routine to start your day as a success? 

Julia Mirer: Yeah, and I actually credit my morning routine to the, kind of, exponential success that I've been experiencing recently. And I've learned to love my daily practice. So in the morning I wake up, I usually have, like, a book that I read, like, I have an audio book and the regular book.

So I'll read a little bit of my audio book. I journal. So I have a gratitude journal which started off as, oh, just force yourself to write five things you're grateful for. There's always five. And then it turned into a little playful thing where I'll be grateful for some things that I want to happen that day.

I'll be grateful for some things just in general. It always starts with I'm grateful for my health and the health of my family. And then my dog. And then, so I meditate 10 to 15 minutes a day. I just, kind of, go with my gut and then I do a plank before I take my phone off of airplane mode. 

Claudia von Boeselager: Oh wow. How long do you do your plank for? 

Julia Mirer: Like 45 seconds. 

Claudia von Boeselager: That's pretty good. 

Julia Mirer: Yeah, and to me, it's just, there are days that I wake up and I'm like groggy to get up, but then I start journaling and I just get this like wave of gratitude. And gratitude for my practice because I'm like, my day is starting, I'm ready to go. Like, it became such a cool routine. But I always tell people, don't be hard on yourself if you skip your routine, like, make it so that your routine is also fluid. Like 80/20. 80% of the time, you're doing all the good things that you do to take care of your vessel, your mind, whatever. 20% is sold to have fun.

Claudia von Boeselager: So beautiful. I love that. I have a morning routine as well. I noticed such a difference if I miss it for whatever reason or don't do it. It's just such a no-brainer that you just stick to it, just do it, the day is completely different, and you really set yourself up to win. So thank you for sharing your one. 

Julia, in the last five years, what new belief or behavior or habit has most improved your life? 

Julia Mirer: Non-attachment to my belief systems. One of the best books that I read was The Five Levels Of Attachment. And the reason why it was so impactful for me is because I'm in a new industry. It is evolving as we go. Anybody who thinks that they know how something is, to me, is immature in they're thinking. Most of the scientists in the space, they're like, we don't know. Like, we know this much, and we're still learning. 

So, you know, for me, it was in terms of ketamine, you know, I looked at us, okay, we're doing IV ketamine, that should not be a thing. And then I was like, we're doing oral ketamine, that should not be a thing. Like, and it was just like with new information, my mind would change. And so that book helped me to detach from any belief of how something should be and just keep watching as how things are and seeing where can I add value, where can I contribute? Because I don't know the way it's supposed to be either. But I'm willing to learn. And that, in this particular space, has made interacting with people easier because when you hear somebody talking about like, this is the only way it's like, oh, you're at that part of your journey. That's okay. I'll see you here later. And then we'll discuss. 

Claudia von Boeselager: Oh, I love that. And it's so refreshing as well, I think, when you get to a point in life where you realise the more, you know, the more you realize how little you actually know. And just to come with this childhood curiosity to things and to be open and not come with your belief systems. And I, you know, I have to check myself sometimes I'm like, oh, I'm assuming something, I'm like, hang on a second, can I see this in a different perspective? And it's just so enriching and so exciting. So I love that. And thanks also for the book recommendation, we'll put it in the show notes. 

Julia Mirer: I think that, you know, being a doctor is almost a disservice in some ways, if you're not somebody that remains open throughout your training. And I joke, I was like, maybe I was supposed to be an investigative journalist and I knew the only way to get the scoop on a doctor's ego was to become one. And it's sad because our ego is a trauma response. You know, we're seen a certain way from our patients, from our colleagues, but from inside it's because we were told we're nothing for so long.

And by the time you're done with these three years, that's when they tell you now you're a doctor and now you've come out and you're like, knower of all things. And imagine as this knower of all things who spent all of their twenties, all of their money, all of their relationships, their time, everything, to become a doctor, and now a patient comes to you and says, hey doc, have you heard of microdosing? And you haven't. And it's helping your patient, who's been, like, you know, miserable for decades. Now you see them getting better and you don't know about this thing. And this new thing is no longer a fun, new piece of information that you get to, like, you know, catapult your creativity through. No, this is an assault to your sense of self. And you will stop that conversation and you will end it there. And this possibility of learning something new kind of disappears. 

So to me, one of my favorite, you know, groups to talk to are the doctors, like, turning a hard "no" into a curious "maybe", to me, facilitates a conversation they may have with their patient, you know, weeks, months, years down the line.
So, like, anything I can do to till that soil a little bit, that's my sweet spot. 

Claudia von Boeselager: Wow. What a calling and what a trajectory that has, 'cause, I mean, each doctor has, you know, an exponential amount of patients as well. So if you can get to, sort of, teach the teacher, right? That's really an amazing mission you have.

Julia Mirer: Heal the healers, heal the world.

Claudia von Boeselager: Wonderful. Julie, when you're feeling overwhelmed or unfocused, how do you regain your focus? What do you do? Any particular strategies? 

Julia Mirer: I stop what I'm doing. If I can try three times as hard to do half as much work on an off day, if I just give myself the rest of the day to rest and, like, lean into it and I'm like, what do you need? Are you hungry? Are you cranky? Do you need to go outside? Like, asking myself? And I do it. And that's actually why I structured my work the way that I did where my schedule allows for me to close my computer and show up for myself, or show up for my tribe, you know, that's the other one. But I recently turned that onto myself. It's like, no, I scheduled this so I could show up for myself because if I give myself that break, I come back 150% the next time. And, you know, it makes it easier to not fall into, like, these spirals that I would have fallen into back when I was a doctor, because the schedules that we work aren't always conducive to, like, our natural flow.

And, like, I think COVID putting everyone at home really showed people how their lives can be different if they were able to show up for themselves a little bit more during their workday. 

Claudia von Boeselager: Excellent. So, Julie, can you talk us through a few different use cases? We touched on different topics, but what type of patient typically comes to you? Maybe you can talk through that. And, like, how you help them in their journey. Is this kind of a, a few week thing, is this a few month thing, you know, how does that patient journey, if you will, with you look like? 

Julia Mirer: So I'm involved in a few different things above ground. So I'm a director of strategy for a a ketamine journey center in New York. So, kind of, that patient experience looks one way. 

I'm one of the two doctors that sits with a patient for psilocybin for major depression. Not a micro dose, a high dose. So there's that kind of approach. And then my, what I like to do, on my, kind of, more or less free time and really just by referral, and really 'cause I love to do this, is the microdosing consults. Because, like we were talking about, give them the full range of possibilities so that they're not, you know, worried that, oh no, now I'm paranoid. Like no, just let the drug wear off and you'll be okay. 

So, I love to do that where it's just, kind of, give people an overall view of what is this, I find out what brought them to it. So I give them all the information that I've learned as it might pertain to them. And the reason why I like this is because there's a lot of different people out there that take what is, like, you know, the Fadiman approach for microdosing, which is once every three days. Or the Stamets, it's, like, three days on four days off and, like, variations of that.

And I think that every practitioner should know about all of them, but it is never the practitioners, and I'm not calling myself a practitioner, these are just like my consults that I do 'cause I love it. But every person should know these things and then encourage the person exploring with it, to develop their own approach, because I don't know what's going to be right for someone. I know that there's certain kind of ways to approach this, like, if you're depressed, maybe you want to microdose every other day for a month long. And that may be because the Fadiman approach just once every three days, you know, in that model, you have the one day that's active. The second day, you have an afterglow, which is where you still, kind of, have, let's say 10 and a half percent. And then the third day is return to normal. And then you start over. 

Well, if you're depressed and you're practicing thinking in a non-depressed way, maybe you don't need that third day of normal to set you back. Maybe you continue doing it every other day, and then once you get to that period where you're like, okay, I'm like, I'm good., And then you take your break. Then maybe the next time you go into microdosing and you're like, oh, I want to create a new habit. Maybe, this time, you do it once every three days, because you want to see, can I do that on my own the third day?

I think that usually for, like, two weeks, it's a good period of time to microdose for the patient. But again, each patient experience is going to be different because what are they coming into this for? San Francisco Psychedelic Society did a microdosing course with James Fadiman. And, in that course, they were talking about how people who microdose more early on tend to need it less later.

It's almost like you're jumpstarting your placebo effect. You're remembering what you're capable of. And then you can do this on your own. And that choice that you have to not be depressed that day or to choose to go exercise, like, when you get that choice back, it's so empowering. 

So, like, patients tend to run with this on their own. Like, I'll tell them everything I tell them. And then they go do their own thing because that's again important. They have to still go take a high dose around people they don't like in order to learn to trust the medicine. You know like, people will still do it, but at least they know in that moment this was a result of my choice to take higher, not set it, whatever.

In terms of the patient experience with psilocybin for the trial, and this is what the trials are, kind of, looking like right now. I'm involved with an organization and we're expanding into psychedelics and cannabis research center. So we're about to see a lot more of these companies come through our doors, but essentially with this one, the patient goes through a pretty long period of time where they're getting surveyed on all these questionnaires, which is very uncomfortable. This is one of the things we're trying to address. It's like, how do we improve the patient experience in research? Because that's how we want to be able to improve the patient experience in clinical rollout.

So 'cause they, kind of, feed in. But then they get, with me and my colleague, they get five to six hours of preparation, and then they get a dose day, which is again about eight hours. And then we follow them up with integration calls for three more calls after that. For those patients, it's placebo controlled, so 50/50, but the ones that do seem to have an active dose, their transformation is remarkable and -
Claudia von Boeselager: Can you talk about that? What are the things that you notice, like, how does that look like?

Julia Mirer: So one of the cool things that I notice is that, if you've done the self-help books, if you've attempted to do that inner work, you've already got the lingo, all those tools come front and center as soon as it's over. And it, that's why I think the preparation is so important and should be longer at times, especially as we do it with ketamine or whatnot, because you're, if the person especially hasn't had therapy before you're taking this prep period to stuff the brain with tools.

And then afterwards they get to decide which of those tools do they want to learn how to use and which of them are they going to apply. But the more they start with, the more they have later. And I noticed this with younger kids too, like, initially, you know, my field research on myself, but I was observing my surroundings and I was like, you know, these younger kids, they haven't had much life experience. There's not much education there. And their interpretation of these psychedelic states, it plugs in basics. It's like, oh, I am the Messiah. It's like, no, there's all these books on spirituality that would explain to you what's happening right now, but it's like, oh, I'm God. 

And that's when I joke that it's like, it's scary to be dumb and lit, meaning, like, lit as in enlightened, because it doesn't have as much of an impact and it could be more confusing than not, like, without the right supporting tools. But yeah, with these participants and it's, like, the cool thing that I see is they'll suddenly, like, look up and be like, I'm selfish. I, I thought I wasn't selfish. I'm so selfish. Like you get these insights about yourself and you start understanding, like, why do people see you a certain way? And it's like, oh wait, because I am that way. Oh, I don't have to be this way. But like now it's good to know that I am this way. 

And it's, when you're supported, this is a fun experience. When you're not supported, it's like, who am I without my depression? Who am I without my anger? Like, these are our personalities that we've, kind of, attached to. So if this isn't in a supportive place, it can be uncomfortable. And some people can revert to their old patterns. Why? Because that's known. And there's no real environment to be different. And that's again, where community plays such an important role. 

Claudia von Boeselager: So you were saying that typically after such an experience, you'd have three sessions of integration where you talk through experiences, so that the learning impact that happens during the journey or the trip, right? That they can integrate it into their new life, essentially. 

Julia Mirer: Yeah. 

Claudia von Boeselager: That's like a long-term benefit? Or does it go back after a while?

Julia Mirer: It depends on the person. And I sometimes compare microdosing and, like, a high dose with kind of like exercise versus plastic surgery.

So sometimes a high dose, you get this great change, but if you're not maintaining that change, you're going to go back as well. With microdosing, it's like the exercising regularly, diet, and all of the things, which is also beneficial after, like, a big plastic surgery moment. But it's those little increments that are really going to create the lasting change. And the experience is only as valuable as what you do with it. 

So a lot of people who use psychedelics recreationally, it's recreational. But a third of that dose in a different set and setting can be so profound that, you know, when people talk about the decriminalization where everything is legal versus the medical model, I'm like, we're still gonna need both, because when you recreationally take psychedelics, you may end up in a point when you need to see a therapist and you're going to want your therapist to be psychedelic-informed. And maybe your therapist helps you, you know, do a microdose during your session and really dig into some of that stuff. So there's going to be a need for it too. Like, the support afterwards. 

Claudia von Boeselager: So helpful. What excites you most about the future of health and wellbeing in general, but also around mental health and what you see emerging out of these different areas? 

Julia Mirer: I consulted for a company where it was a wellness retreat and their goal was to, kind of, bring the attention back to nature where the belief is that we're not separate from nature, we are nature. And my goal with this field, and what it's going to hopefully do for mental health, is that when we feel better, we feel more connected to ourselves, maybe we feel more connected to nature. And maybe this inspires us to do things with our brilliant brains to help nature. That's why I think it's important to get information about psychedelics and these experiences to, again, those people who can create change. Because of people at the top can tap back into their empathy, can really value earth again, I think that we really can change things. And that's, for me, my goal, like, I don't want to, somebody very brilliant told me don't combine psychedelics with anything else, that might be like a political thing. Like, so, you know, you don't want anybody, like, against the planet to be against psychedelics as well. But I really do think that that's going to be, like, if we, imagine what would happen if we care about ourselves again. You know, that's going to be reflected in our external as well.

Like, littering happens probably in part because we just don't care, like. 

Claudia von Boeselager: Or are unhappy with ourselves. So if you can heal that inner trauma and inner pain, then you have no reason to have that outward aggression and anger as well. So, yeah, so beautiful.

Julie, is there any specific age group or demographic where you see the benefits are much greater for, be it dosing, or treatment and therapy as well?

Julia Mirer: So what's interesting is, in the last couple of years, I've seen people from like the ages of 18 to 80 will have benefit. A couple of interesting things. One, so psychedelics, particularly psilocybin in this case, has anti-inflammatory effects. So it is being currently studied for dementia. 

And I can say that I've seen firsthand a 79 year old woman, who's dementia made her mean, it suddenly made her a little bit less mean. And I think there was some article, and don't quote me on this because I'd have to look it up, but there was something about schizophrenia patients receiving this back in the day and their voices didn't go away, but they got nicer. So like, you know, there, maybe there's something to that. And there's actual research right now going on to take a look at what happens to the plaques in Alzheimer's when you're using these higher doses.
 
Now, with microdosing, it's also going to be good for the people over 55. Paul Stamets, his Stamets stack with niacin, psilocybin and lion's mane, has been shown to improve cognition. They did, like, some, I don't remember what the exact test was, but there was an actual quantitative measurement. And so that really is appealing to a lot of people who either have parents who have dementia or the older population is starting to pay attention to these things that they heard about when they were younger.

And another interesting thing that I'll mention is the work with autism in the future. So there's one company that's currently looking at this for fragile X syndrome and, for the behavioral parts of the disorder. And because, you know, we have edibles nowadays, you know, the same stories we have of cannabis, somebody eats a gummy and they're too high. So, mushrooms oftentimes are now being sold as chocolate. And I had a friend tell me a story that she's collecting this information because we're going to need it. Right now, it's anecdotal. But there was a case of a child with severe behavioral problems who went past the ice cream past all the good things in the freezer got to the chocolate, like divine intervention. And he obviously ate the chocolate. Parents panicked. But then this kid's behavioral problems started to unravel. And, to me, that is so promising. And also suggested that inflammation, and stress causes inflammation, and our lives cause us stress, that inflammation is really so detrimental to our brains, that all of these behavioral issues - like, imagine if we could just fix it with a quick flush of anti-inflammatory effects of psychedelics, like, how amazing would that be?

Claudia von Boeselager: That's so amazing and so interesting to see. Hopefully they'll be doing trials on that as well. You know, if you can, how many children suffer with behavioral issues, and autism is on the rise, and so many different issues with inflammation trigger, not just for the brain, but the whole body in general. I mean, chronic diseases, et cetera. So if you can reduce that with some form of microdosing, that's such an exciting space to be in Julia. 

So some rapid fire questions before we finish up today. Really loved this conversation. I definitely think we're going to have to do a part two very soon. What are some of the learnings or insights that your clients you work with have found most valuable or even, sort of, secondhand, but people that you know. 

Julia Mirer: Each person's really different and I had some funny ones. We lie to ourselves a lot, you know, and we tell ourselves these stories. And I remember I had a friend who took a higher dose and I was asking him, I was like, so what do you love about your job? He lists five things. I'm like, okay, well, what do you hate about your job? He lists the same five things. And I'm like, now what? What are you going to do now? So that was an interesting one. 

But a lot of times people realize - there's a lot of family stuff. And there's a lot of secrets that people keep. And these experiences make people be like, first of all, they become aware of the patterns. And then they realize that they don't have to continue those patterns.

Like, I think the most powerful thing that people come away with this is their choice. Again, choice and then compassion, because one of the issues sometimes people come to this with is addiction. And I always tell people, I was like, to me, abstinence is not necessarily, opioids are different, I think, but abstinence is not necessarily a sign of healthy recovery. Because it is our relationship to the drug, or to the substance, or to the relationship, that needs to be changed. It's not inherently good or bad.

And, when people start their healing journey, it's not a linear thing. It's, you know, down, back, all the way around. And one of the things that, I really love watching people learn how to do is show themselves compassion for when they mess up, because we're going to. It's not a matter of I'm now healed and I'll never snap at anyone.

No, you will snap at someone. How quickly did you turn around? How much did you shame yourself for it? Like, if it's a little bit less each time, then you're already ahead. Like, you're already moving forward. Did you have another drink even though you're trying to stop drinking? Did it turn into a bender? No, you're already ahead.

Like, and so watching people shift from this, like, goals and doing and this to realizing, like, there's levels of being, and I'm at the pace that I can be at right now. And it's just, it's so amazing to see people be kind to themselves. 

Claudia von Boeselager: Beautiful. In your experience, or in your view, what separates a good therapist or doctor in this space from a not great one?

Julia Mirer: So, we're broken. Like, you know, there's a lot of therapists that need their patients as much as their patients need them. And it's unfortunate. And the thing is that a bad therapist can do more harm than no therapist. So I think the good therapists in this space are the ones that are humbled. Preferably humbled by their own journey.

Because again, that quote that I said, the experience is necessary to add emotional understanding to intellectual belief. You can read about psychedelics all you want. Until you felt that, like, gut wrenching, fear, or sorrow, like, that can come in waves with this. Like, until you've experienced that you really don't know what your patient is really going through.

And then, people who have an agenda, you know, that's not, as I think in line with this space. Like, I think it's important to have a guideline, but anytime you try to protocolize something, you're missing the art of medicine. So I think that anybody that's trying to, like, do a very standardized approach, be wary. Just, like with ketamine, they say two sessions a week for three weeks. Well, maybe you need one session every two weeks. But if you feel like you're pressured by this protocol that you just paid thousands of dollars for, you might go into a session before you were really ready to. And one of the goals that I have is to figure out how do we create programming that is both fluid and structured to allow enough autonomy for the patient, but enough guidance that they don't feel like they're floating, kind of, on their own.

Claudia von Boeselager: And that there's some structure in there. That makes sense. 

Julie, what was the biggest challenge you've faced in the last five years? And how did you overcome it? 

Julia Mirer: When I was in residency, that feeling of waking up and just wishing I didn't have to do it again. It wasn't suicidality it was, I think it was suicidal ideation, and to me that was weird because I've never been there. And so when that happened, my therapist wanted to increase my meds and I said: "You? You told me you don't even want me on meds in two years. Like, if you're telling me to add meds, I was like, I promise you I'll call you in a week. Something else is going on."

And that week I decided to resign. And that was the big, hardest move. Because to me it was a matter of how am I disappointing my colleagues, how am I disappointing my family, my program, my patients. And then I reversed the question and said, how are you disappointing yourself by staying? And somewhere my soul just screams: "In every freaking way, julia, get out of here." 

Claudia von Boeselager: Wow. 

Julia Mirer: Yeah, that was probably the first most difficult. And then the second most difficult was staying out of medicine, because everyone I talked to would say go back to residency, get your license. I'm like, but there's not a single form of medicine that I want a license to practice, like. 

So, but I understood that would be the easy way. That would be the financially secure way. That would be like the logical way. And my soul just kept saying this isn't about logical, Julia, like, follow your gut, you got this, we're going somewhere. And it was actually something I remembered, I took a dose that I thought was a microdose before I knew anything, and I remember that when I was 17 to 19, I used to have this, like, giddy little thing that I used to say, which is, I feel like I'm meant to do something great, it's going to cause a paradigm shift in some aspect of medicine, and it may not be as a doctor, but it's definitely via the med school route. And it was only that mantra that stayed, that kept me out of, like, the easy route of going back to the wheel, back to the hamster wheel. Yeah. 

Claudia von Boeselager: That's incredible. What a powerful intuition you also have, right, that really speaks to you so clearly. So I'm very jealous. 

Julia Mirer: We all have it. It's just a matter of tapping back into it. I think that really, like, the real gift of psychedelics is connecting us back to ourselves.

Claudia von Boeselager: Connecting, yeah. No, and, I've been working on intuition and things as well. I had a funny experience I'll share now, I was an Abu Dhabi recently and I lost my Oura Ring and I had been in the ocean with my kids and I assumed it went off in the ocean. And that night going to sleep, I had just this like electric shock that it was exactly in a certain spot that I totally forgot that we had sat in before we went to where we were then for the rest of the day.

And we were literally there for three minutes. And I just had this, like, premonition and I just knew. And the next day I went there. I had to convince the people, like, to let me get back to where I wanted to go. They're like, what are you doing here? I was like, I've lost my Oura Ring. They're like, what? What's that? Of course they had no clue what I was talking about.

I went back, I kid you not, it wasn't, like, exactly where I thought, but it was right beside it. It had fallen off the wall into the bush. And I was just, like, I just love intuition. It's just so amazing. So yeah, I'm really excited to dig deeper into the power of intuition as well. 

Julia, what has been your most exciting purchase in the last six months? 

Julia Mirer: Car.

I wasn't mobile for a while and then I got my car again. So now I really feel like I'm back online. 

Claudia von Boeselager: Especially in the US it's a very car-friendly country. So I totally feel for that. 

Julia, for my listeners interested in understanding more about microdosing and psychedelic medicine and therapy, which online resources would you recommend they start with? 

Julia Mirer: The Microdosing Institute, which is really good, it's in the Netherlands. And they have amazing content. Really amazing. 

Claudia von Boeselager: And Julia, where can people learn more about what you're up to, be it social media, websites. How can people reach out to you? 

Julia Mirer: So I'm @reflective_mirer on Instagram. 

Claudia von Boeselager: And that's M-I-R-E-R, for people, just. 

Julia Mirer: Correct. Yeah. It's 

funny ' cause I used to call myself Dr. Meyer my whole doctor career. And then, but that's not how you pronounce my name. My last name is Mirer. And now I'm Dr. Mirer, which is hysterical in psychedelics because that's, we are all mirrors to each other. 

Claudia von Boeselager: Very suitable. 

Julia Mirer: And LinkedIn, if you connect with me on LinkedIn, always happy to chat, answer any questions, connect to resources.

I think we're all just welcoming each other home, like Ram Dass says. 

Claudia von Boeselager: Beautiful. 
Julia, do you have any final ask, or recommendation, or any parting thoughts or message for my audience? 

Julia Mirer: Don't force anyone to microdose. You never know what is lurking underneath, so what might be good for you may not be good for someone else. But don't shy away from having the conversation.

Keep talking until somebody gets curious enough, and lead by example.
 
Claudia von Boeselager: Excellent. Thank you so much, Julia, for being on today, it's been such a pleasure. 

Julia Mirer: Thank you for having me.