Claudia von Boeselager: Dina, welcome to the Longevity & Lifestyle Podcast. It's such a pleasure to have you on today. 

Dina Burkitbayeva: Thank you so much, Claudia, for having me. Very excited to dig in. 

Claudia von Boeselager: So Dina, I'd love to start with your story to becoming an investor in the psychedelic space, and it's such an exciting sector, growing exponentially, but where did this journey come from?

Dina Burkitbayeva: Absolutely. So it came from a personal story and a lot of research. So maybe I'll back up a little bit. You know, I've, kind of, led a very professionally intense career, sort of, started investment banking, went to consulting, had an MBA and started a company out of that, and, sort of, professionally, I think I always had a lot of stress. 

I went and I started looking at what is, sort of, what exists in terms of alternative treatments. And that launched me into a fascinating world. And there's so much there. It's still, kind of, early stages and maybe scientifically unproven in many ways, but I think we're moving into the direction where those become, sort of, more studied and more adopted.

And so I really started with, sort of, looking at other things such as EMDR and neurofeedback, gut-brain connections, hormone-brain connections, more holistic practices. And in my research, I kept coming across psychedelics and empathogens, which is, sort of, the group of drugs such as MGMA and ketamine. And the research was actually the most compelling across the board when compared to other alternative treatments. 

You know, I come from a pretty conservative culture where anything psychoactive is completely off the table. And so there was a great deal of, sort of, stigma around what these medications are. And, you know, obviously due to the scheduling and the history of psychedelics, you know, it's kind of a big question mark that the media always asks is, like, are these real medicines or are these drugs, basically? 
And so I started just diving into the it of that very, very deeply. And I was very fortunate to know some people who worked at MAPS, which is the non-profit biotech that's taking MDMA for PTSD through the FDA. And I learned from them about, kind of, very compelling, scientific, and clinical evidence that existed, and started looking more and more into it. And I realized that, you know, there's a real "there" there to be able to help a lot of people who can't find treatment and, sort of, the more traditional ways, which is a lot, right? Kind of coming back a number of, 30% of people have treatment resistant depression and anxiety. And, you know, and those are actually the mental health conditions that are most studied and most addressed. 

So that's, sort of, something that allowed me, and compelled me, to really, kind of, launch it and to say I think there's a "there" there. And so I started investing as an angel and then eventually formed a syndicate in a fund called PsyMed Ventures, where we're primarily focus on psychedelic therapeutics, precision psychiatry, and also nerve stimulation, all in the realm of mental health.

Claudia von Boeselager: Amazing. And I wonder for some people in the audience that, you know, we've people from around the globe that aren't so familiar with this space, can you maybe talk about some of the research and the studies that have been done around the different areas of treatment that they're effective for and why is it so compelling? Why is this so groundbreaking as a treatment methodology? 

Dina Burkitbayeva: Sure. So in terms of what exists in terms of clinical evidence, there's quite a bit, right? So certain highlights are probably MDMA and psilocybins, those are the two molecules that are the farthest along on the FDA approval pathway. So MDMA, which is being sponsored by MAPS, the nonprofit biotech that I just mentioned, and it is in phase three, it had a sort of a mid-point readout earlier this year for PTSD. And the readout results were actually absolutely fascinating.
I believe it was over 60% of people that were still responders to the treatment six months after the end of the treatment, right? Which, you know, in psychiatry are, kind of, unprecedented levels of efficacy. And so, you know, I think that's really the program that's leading the way in psychedelics.

I would say that the program that's, kind of, second to approval is Compass Pathways molecule, which is a Psilocybin molecule for treatment resistant depression. And that's in phase two B, and they expect a readout at some point by end of this year. Which is also very exciting. 

This is, kind of, for those maybe that are not so familiar with the FDA approval process, these are quite far along in that process and, you know, something like MDMA could potentially be on the market as early as in two to three years and about three to four years for psilocybin. And these would be federally approved treatments with potential that they would be covered by insurance and would be, kind of, widely, wildly available. 

Claudia von Boeselager: Which is so exciting. And even just taking a step back from that. So if we look at the MDMA for PTSD and for people, unfamiliar PTSD is post traumatic stress disorder, right? So, I mean, that's a range of veterans coming back from war, unable to integrate back into society, which I think is a big one.

There's a lot of research being done specifically in this area at the Johns Hopkins University and Imperial College in London on this as well, but PTSD can also be trauma from a car accident. I mean, really, a lot of people have some sort of trauma experience, whether they call it trauma or not, in their lives. So, I mean, there's such a wide ranging benefit or a use case, if you will. 

Maybe you can just help people understand the difference of, you know, if you were to deal with PTSD by therapy, talk therapy let's call it, versus a therapy using MDMA, and what specifically does that actually look like? 

Dina Burkitbayeva: Yeah, maybe really, kind of, stepping back and just, sort of, like, what is psychedelic assisted therapy? What is psilocybin or MDMA assisted therapy? So don't entirely quote me on this. This is, you know, I've never been sort of in- 

Claudia von Boeselager: For everyone listening, you know, seek medical assistance. And this is just for education and informational purposes. 

Dina Burkitbayeva: Absolutely not any kind of medical advice. But basically what the treatment involves is having three to four, and this is something that I think still needs to be decided as they're going through the FDA approval, is it going to be three or four sessions? And what is sessions, right? A session is a day long treatment where a patient would come into a clinic - it would be in clinic - and they would be in a, kind of, a separate room. They would take the medicine, which is MDMA or psilocybin or whatever other molecule is in question. 

And they would be in, sort of, the journey part of the treatment for four to six hours, potentially eight hours. And what does the journey entail? You know, there's different sort of effects that happen but, from the physical ones, it's, you know, you might feel tingling in your body. Your temperature may raise a little bit. Your heart rate might go up a little bit. But the really important stuff that's happening during the journey is really the more psychological and spiritual things that are happening, right? So usually patients close their eyes. It's dark in the room. There's, you know, two therapists or maybe a doctor and a therapist that are sitting with the patient at all times. Monitoring their vitals, but also, kind of, providing that safe space for the patient to really be able to go inwards in the sense that their eyes are closed. And they're really, kind of, staying with the experience. And the experience can be really anything, right? And there's a big belief that the medicine in connection with your own psyche and your soul and your body are able to create the experience that you most need for healing. Right?

And so maybe you've come across some accounts of PTSD patients who've had MDMA treatment. You know, accounts could include things like, you know, I felt so much love and warmth and safety in my body. I felt entirely, sort of, supported by the universe and, you know, by life itself. And in that moment, I was able to allow for the traumatic accident or the experience to, sort of, replay, but I wasn't responding to it in the same way that I usually am, which is fear or dissociation, trying to move away from experiencing that again, to one of acceptance, maybe forgiveness, and, you know, just a reframing.

And I think this, kind of, the big hope and belief really in the space that by being able to put oneself in such a safe space and, kind of, replay and then reprogram the way we see the trauma is what really allows people to let it go in some way. Obviously it's always a part of you, but maybe not just have it be acute. And, you know, this is just one account of a very, sort of, basic way to categorize what people have been going through, but there's various other things that people go through that they continuously call healing, you know? Whatever that means for different people. 

Claudia von Boeselager: And you mentioned before that there were some studies that show that people, even six months after having these sessions, still felt the benefits of the therapy. 

Dina Burkitbayeva: Yeah. So this is, I think, something that's very interesting to mention is because there's different schools of thought, you know, when it comes to why psychedelics work, right? And why this could be a total game changer in psychiatry. Right? 

And this is not to say that, like, psychedelics will be the only thing to treat any kind of psychiatric diseases, I think is just an option for some people. But I think it's a very needed option just because the options that we have at hand are not meeting the need. So the different schools of thoughts are, kind of, in these different camps. One is a much more sort of psycho-spiritual or spiritual, right? So it's more around, sort of, the connection of the soul, the heart, with the rest of the universe, with nature, with others, with source, right?

Sort of, this is something that I think psychedelics do help experience for some people that are going through the experience. And that tends to be very, I think, healing because, you know, people no longer feel as alone or they feel supported, right? They believe that good things are coming their way. That there's something bigger that works for their good, right? And that's a big part of, I think, why people believe the psychedelics work. The other one- 

Claudia von Boeselager: Quick question on that, sorry to just interrupt if I may, but would you say that that's, you know, psychedelics come from the traditional tribes, right? They've been around for such a long time. And do you think that that is part of the traditional use case of it for that feeling of connectivity and not feeling alone? Or do you think it's from a more medical perspective? 

Dina Burkitbayeva: I would definitely say that it's not coming from a medical perspective, right? I think medically hallucinations and whatever is likely making that connection possible is seen as a side effect. So hallucinations, like, you know, if, if you're taking ketamine or psilocybin, you know, and it's a hallucinogenic, is actually seen as a side effect. So it's a negative thing in the medical system right now. I think with psychedelics going through the FDA, that's going to change. 
So it's definitely coming more from the spiritual practices. I think in terms of, sort of, more ceremonial practices that have been around for centuries, I can't really speak to all the ways that they use the psychedelics for, but definitely a lot of it was around connecting to nature and to universe and to each other. And then most importantly to yourself. 

Claudia von Boeselager: Yeah, exactly. Okay. Thank you for clarifying. So sorry I interrupted you. You were about to go on to the next point. 

Dina Burkitbayeva: No, absolutely. The next sort of school of thought is around psychedelics allowing you to be able to look at your life, or at whatever, you know, is essential to you at that point, in a different way, right? So it's really about reprogramming. And not in a kind of robotic militaristic way, but it's more, sort of, through feeling, through the body, and, kind of, a much more somatic, spiritual way as well. But one that also really involves the mind, right? 

And so, you know, a lot of times people come out of these experiences and they realize that they've been living their life or the way they've been looking at a certain problem is not the way they want to continue doing that, right? And so, you know, it's often that people come out of journeys and they're like, oh, I want to change so many things about my life. And sometimes they do, and sometimes they don't, but I think just that awareness that comes during the journeys is very powerful. It's spiritual, but it also really, kind of, connects the mind. And that's why I call it more, kind of, psychological because it connects the various parts of you. 

And then the third part is really like neuro-biological, right? And this is where, sort of, neuroscientists, psychiatrists, psychopharmacologists, and, you know, many, many different experts are looking at what is happening in the brain that can explain that people are free of depression, with ketamine, for example, up to a week, right, after having the experience. And with psilocybin, with MDMA, we don't know exactly, but, you know, it could be weeks and into the months. 

So what is actually happening in the brain? There's various hypotheses around these. I mean, I can speak to but it's pretty, like, scientific, not that, kind of, interesting, but just to say that there's a lot of research now into what's actually happening with the brain receptors and the neuroplasticity that explains why, for example, you know, if an SSRI or a benzo medication wasn't working for someone and all of a sudden they've had this experience, yes, a lot of it is, sort of, more around, like, spiritual, psychological shifts, but some of it could be actually, like, the change in your brain chemistry, it allowed for that sustained change to appear.

Claudia von Boeselager: So is it creating new neural pathways during this few hour timeframe, so that the mind doesn't go via the old pathways to the sort of negative sphere, but actually uses the new neural pathways to have a new perception on things? Is that what's, part of what's happening? 

Dina Burkitbayeva: Yeah. There's a couple of things. The fact that, you know, more synapses are being created during the experience. And while some of them, you know, retract or disappear, some of them do stay. And, you know, that's, there's a hypothesis around the fact that that's responsible for creation of new associations, new ideas, right? Which are likely to be more positive, right? Because if we're thinking about someone who's depressed, a big, kind of, symptom of depression is the fact that people are constantly thinking negatively, right? Through this experience, which can be very beautiful and healing, and they actually see that they're supported and loved. And those, the 'I am supported and loved' synapses, let's say, are built. And you know, those may sustain.

And I think this is why, what keeps coming up over and over again is the importance of integration. Preparation before the journeys, but also integration, because you've just, sort of, did a big jolt to your brain, or to your spirit and soul, and you've gained a lot. And that's something that, you know, if one doesn't, sort of, sit with it or fully integrate it into, you know, their own cells, into their lives, there's a risk that they would lose most of it, right?

How many times have we gone to a retreat and said, oh my God, I'm changing my whole life. We go back home the next day, which, you know, with all the same sort of patterns and, you know, two months later, we're like, oh my God, what happened?
You know, I had all these plans. 

Claudia von Boeselager: What does successful integration look like? I mean, how is that done? 

Dina Burkitbayeva: Yeah. I think it's different for everybody, but usually what people who are, kind of, more experienced with this say that, you know, taking time off. So, you know, I think what's very popular is going for an ayahuasca weekend. You know, like, you finish work at like 5:00 PM on a Friday, and drive over to your first sitting on Friday night with ayahuasca and then you sit on Saturday night, and then on Sunday you come home and, like, you do laundry and then you go to work on Monday. Right? 

So that's, like, something that I think is being practiced quite a bit. And everyone decides for themselves, it could work for some people, but those don't tend to be as impactful in terms of integrating what you've learned. And what a lot of people just want to keep, right? They want to keep it that something beautiful happened or something, like, very transformative happened. So I think just giving it time, whatever that looks like, and not needing to go back to something that's very demanding, and would, sort of, take away from the process that's happening with you. 

A lot of people believe that what happens is all subconscious or like on a spirit and on a subconscious level. So, you know, after people have this psychedelic experience, a lot of people can't make sense of what happened, right?

It's something that's just not comprehensive to the mind. It may become later, but not at this point in time. And so if you're letting yourself rest, and just be in nature, and not watching TV, not looking at social media, and not going to work and getting stressed out, you're allowing for that process to actually happen more smoothly and more deeply.
These are, sort of, some of the things that people speak about with integration. 

Claudia von Boeselager: That seems to make a lot of sense, just to give yourself that space for the recalibration, because I think as you said yourself, that a lot of things happen at a subconscious level. So the rational mind can't understand it. And it's just having that time to recalibrate and understand that, I think. Not trying to understand why and what, 'cause that's the rational mind coming through. So, and I like the idea of being in nature to just be, right? And then let the recalibration happen and not need to be in charge, in control of everything as well.

Dina, what are some of the myths and misconceptions about psychedelics and what they can do and cannot do? 

Dina Burkitbayeva: Sure, absolutely. I think this is a very important conversation, so I appreciate you bringing that up. You know, psychedelics have been receiving a lot of attention, especially in the last two years. And, you know, the media portrays them at times as this sort of silver bullet, right? This thing that's going to save us all. And I think that's a very dangerous narrative just because we're not setting up ourselves, you know, as people who may need these medicines, but also these programs that are, you know, trying to come to the market for success.

The stories that people probably hear the most is something along the lines of, you know, I was deeply depressed and then I had a journey of whatever the medicine is. And I woke up a different person. And I never went back to my bad habits or feeling depressed again. And those do exist and those are incredible stories, but those are a tiny, tiny sliver of what actually happens for most people.

I think a lot of people have very different experiences where working with the medicine actually makes things a lot harder, right? Because you're a lot more aware of something that you haven't been aware of, something that's causing the problem, likely, but you just, you just haven't faced it because you've been actively trying to run away from it.

Claudia von Boeselager: So you mean like the down, root cause of the issue that you've buried comes to light? 

Dina Burkitbayeva: Yeah. 
Even, like, a traumatic experience that people block off, right? Because it's so painful. And then, you know, what if you can have, all of a sudden, during a journey, you have that experience, and this is something that Tim Ferriss speaks about in his, I think it was exactly a year ago that he, on his podcast, spoke about his own personal experience of what came out to him. 

Claudia von Boeselager: Yeah. Yeah. Of sexual abuse in childhood, yeah.

Dina Burkitbayeva: Exactly, and, you know, imagine what that would be like. I don't think, I mean, I have no idea what his experience was but my guess is for most people it wouldn't be an easy one to get out of. So you're probably not in this sort of euphoric, beautiful space where things are great. I'm sure there's a great level of gratitude for finally, kind of, knowing the truth and being aware of what may be causing certain feelings or reactions that you weren't aware of before, but that is just to say that, you know, people shouldn't see psychedelics as, you know, I, I had this experience, it was trippy and amazing, or was difficult and amazing, and then I'm going to walk off a different person and be forever changed. I think if anyone's considering this, it's definitely something to take very, very seriously. Do a lot of preparation. You know, do therapy. Do, kind of, the work before you launch into something like this. And then make sure that you have a support system for integration. And just in general. 

And I think one thing to, kind of, mention is, because I don't think too many people know, even if someone had experience with psychedelics, but more outwardly, right? So you take psychedelics at a party or Burning Man, or, you know, even in nature, the experience inward tends to be very different.

Claudia von Boeselager: And "inward", do you mean by, you know, when you have the mask on and you're in a quiet room versus in a party setting? 

Dina Burkitbayeva: Yeah, versus, you know, eyes open and you're, sort of, taking things from the outside.
There's none of those stimuli, right? You're just, sort of, working what's coming up in your body, what's coming up within yourself. 

Claudia von Boeselager: Those are really helpful advice, I think, for someone. And I'd love even just if you, for someone considering this, and I think that probably a challenge, especially in other places around the world, that there are not very many therapists trained in this, right, as well. So say someone is considering trying this, this type of therapy, if you will, what would be some of the homework you were calling it, right?

So the work to be done to prepare. You know, would you recommend actually going to therapy? Would you recommend writing down, you know, what are some of the traumatic experiences from life that maybe were suppressed that might come up, just to be aware of that? What would it be, sort of, the pre-therapy, pre-journey? And you said about afterwards taking time in nature and things like that as well, are there, sort of, the top three things that you would recommend for afterwards as well? 

Dina Burkitbayeva: Yeah, I mean, I think for preparation learning as much as possible about what this is, right? Like, what does this look like? I think a lot of times people have a lot of anxiety because they just don't know. And, you know, I think there's a variety of books. I mean, Michael Pollan's book How to Change your Mind is a good resource. If people want to go deeper, you know, Stanislav Grof's books, kind of, there's many, sort of, books that would prepare you in terms of understanding what the experience is going to be. 

Or it's watching documentaries. I think a great one is called A Trip Of Compassion. That talks about MDMA therapy. And, yeah, so, kind of, familiarizing yourself with what this is and what you can expect. Maybe speaking with other people who've gone through the experience. 

I think definitely doing therapy. I think the reason for that is because you want to prepare yourself for what might come up. And if people have never really spent time with themselves, right? This can happen through meditation as well, through other, sort of, inward work. But if they've never spent time there and, you know, going and, kind of, allowing the defenses to come down, and then things coming up, it could just be overwhelming. And overwhelming is likely not good, right? Because you could get scared. You could get dissociated from whatever's happening. You could just have a negative experience and you never want to go there. So just preparation is good in general. 

And then I would also say check the legality because obviously these medications are being studied clinically, but they're not legal in all jurisdictions, right? Ketamine is probably the most widely legal one, and, you know, obviously it also depends on the jurisdiction, but the rest, it really depends on, sort of, where you are in the world. 

Oh, for after, for integration. So, you know, being able to just give yourself the space to really, kind of, feel into what happened during the journey, right? To allow it to fully integrate in and, kind of, stay with you, if that's something that you would choose to do. Journaling is great. Continuing to eat healthy, nutritious food is important. And like I said, definitely a support system is very important. 

Claudia von Boeselager: Very helpful. Thank you. I'd love to throw some rapid fire questions at you, Dina, before we talk about investing in the psychedelic space.
So thinking of the word successful, who's the first person who comes to mind and why?

Dina Burkitbayeva: Successful... I think it will be my mom, actually. And the reason why I say that is because, you know, she really enjoyed what she did for her career. And she was, kind of, excellent at that. She was a professor. And, at the same time, she really enjoyed her life at home, you know, and now she has grandchildren and a big family that she can, kind of, take care of.

I think this is something that shifted for me recently because I used to just be like, oh, who's the richest person or who's the most accomplished person, right? I mean, I am, kind of, come from like an MBA background. So that tends to, you know, it's triggered and things have shifted lately.

Claudia von Boeselager: I love that. What was she a professor in?

Dina Burkitbayeva: Linguistics. 

Claudia von Boeselager: Linguistics, wow, yeah. So she was able to successfully balance between career and having time for the family, which I think for so many people, it's such a big challenge. 

Dina Burkitbayeva: Yeah. 

Claudia von Boeselager: Amazing. What a great role model to have, Dina. Lucky you. 
Do you have a favorite quote or a piece of advice received that's been a real game changer for you?

Dina Burkitbayeva: Yes. I would say one of the most impactful things I've heard is that life happens for you.

Claudia von Boeselager: Mmm hmm. Not to you. 

Dina Burkitbayeva: Not to you. Yeah, I think this is a Tony, I mean, I don't know who said it exactly, but I heard- 

Claudia von Boeselager: Yeah, I think Tony Robbins says it a lot as well, yeah. 

Dina Burkitbayeva: And, you know, I think what's impactful about that is, first, I was like, I don't believe that. And then you sit down and you, sort of, look back at some of the best things that happened to you. They only were able to happen to you because something else at the time didn't work out and you felt like, you know, life was happening to you.

And so, I think that's a big reframing that requires a lot of work still, but it's a very meaningful one in my life. 

Claudia von Boeselager: I love that. And I think in Steve Jobs' 2005 Stanford commemoration speech, which is a really amazing 15 minutes YouTube video, which people can watch as well. I love the way he portrays it as connecting the dots, right? So it's only when you look back, do you realize, you know, had I not actually done that or had I not had that weird experience, which at the time I'm like, why did this happen to me? But only thanks to that experience later, do you realize it set you up for success later? So, yeah. I love that. 

Do you have a particular morning routine, Dina, to start your day as a success? 

Dina Burkitbayeva: Yeah, I do actually. You know, I don't know if it's always a success, but it, this is the routine that works best for me. I am very fortunate to be a very early riser, so I have a lot of time in the morning. So I don't want to intimidate anyone with this. I do probably wake up around five o'clock in the morning.

Claudia von Boeselager: Okay. Naturally? 

Dina Burkitbayeva: Yeah, naturally. And the first hour or so I stay in bed and I meditate. So it's, kind of like, a lazy meditation, but actually it allows me to go much deeper because my body's relaxed. I'm not thinking about, sort of, sitting up or doing something. 

Claudia von Boeselager: And you're probably in alpha brainwave state, yeah. Is there any particular type of meditation, just out of interest?

Dina Burkitbayeva: I use the insight timer and sometimes I just listen to binaural beats or music, or sometimes, if something's very present, I go and find, like, a guided meditation. But it's very a la carte depending on what I want at that point. 
Then I have a wonderful dog. And usually go for a walk. So I get outside almost right away with her.

And then around 6:30, 7 o'clock, I move, right? I have to exercise. I think movement is very, very important to me keeping balanced and being, sort of, a productive person. And that varies between yoga and, whenever possible, I do it outside. I just find, sort of, being able to see the sky very, very expansive. 

And then I also really love a workout called The Class by Taryn Toomey. It's basically high-intensity workout with a lot of emotional release. So the exercises and the whole routine are, sort of, around yes, kind of, releasing tensions in the body and obviously increasing strength. But a lot of it is around, sort of, working past the point of pain physically. And, kind of, equating that to something that you're dealing with emotionally, psychologically.

So, you know, during the movement, they would say, there's something that you're dealing with and, like, we're doing these burpees and, like, you just have to keep pushing because this is, like, the way you push through something that's happening inside you. You know, if you go into a class, before COVID I was able to do that, you know, people cry, people scream in the class.

It's, kind of, one of these, like, you walk out and you're like, oh, I'm, like, a reborn human because, like, I just released a lot of this, whatever I wanted to let go. 

Claudia von Boeselager: That sounds amazing. Can you spell the name, just for people interested? 

Dina Burkitbayeva: Sure. It's called The Class, T H E, and separate word "class", C L A S S. And then you can type in by Taryn Toomey, and I believe she spells her name T A R Y N, Toomey, T O O M E Y.

Claudia von Boeselager: Okay. Taryn Toomey. Okay, perfect. Thank you for sharing. 
Let's change gears a bit and talk about your incredible work you're doing in the investing space and psychedelics. Why do you think there has been so much interest from the investor community? And can you talk about some of the investments you've made and what these companies are doing?

Dina Burkitbayeva: Sure, absolutely. So through the fund, through the PsyMed Ventures Fund, probably made around 20 investments in the space over the last three or so years. Primarily, the companies are in drug development, which means, you know, these are companies, biotech, biopharma companies, that are basically creating psychedelic molecules that would be approved by the FDA for treatment of depression or anxiety or PTSD, et cetera.

You know, through the fund, we see that the medical model, and what I mean by that is a model through which psychedelics would be FDA approved and then go, sort of, into clinics, is how the first, sort of, wave of patients would be able to be treated. And, you know, that's primarily because we still need to show safety around these molecules.

So that's probably the biggest focus. And, you know, we've invested in companies such as Atai Life Sciences, which is the largest platform company in this space. We've invested in companies such as Delix Therapeutics, which is developing a non-hallucinogenic psychedelic molecules to allow, sort of, a larger population of patients to take advantage of the changes in neuroplasticity without having the trip. Companies such as Terran Biosciences, Freedom Biosciences, Tactogen, and, kind of, many more besides that. 

We've also invested in companies outside of drug development, more the medical devices access which is connecting patients with therapists or patients with psychiatrists, and something that's more, sort of, in the SAS and analytics space is, you know, the number of clinics and the number of practitioners is growing at crazy speed. Really, you know, that whole infrastructure also needs support in terms of EMR, EHR and analytics type of companies. 

Claudia von Boeselager: Really interesting. And you said in the SAS space, how does it just work specifically, 'cause is it like a telemedicine model? I mean, it's still very, kind of, you know, you need the actual physical therapist and you need the actual patient, right? So how does that work? 

Dina Burkitbayeva: There are virtual ketamine clinics that started probably in the last year and a half, since the start of COVID, primarily. We're not invested in any of the virtual ketamine clinics, however, you know, sort of, telemedicine is possible in that way, where a patient can speak to a psychiatrist or a nurse who can prescribe the ketamine and that gets sent to you through a compounding pharmacy. And then, you know, the patient can have the experience at home, you know, connected to a therapist, or maybe not even that. 

It's unlikely that that will, kind of, translate to psilocybin, MDMA, and some of the other ones, because they are, you know, these medicines are very potent, so doing them at home, without sort of medical and- 

Claudia von Boeselager: Supervision, yeah. 

Dina Burkitbayeva: Yeah, it's hard. So, yeah. But the space is just at its very start. I know that it's been getting a lot of media attention, but, you know, we all believe that this is just the very, very start. 

Claudia von Boeselager: The very beginning. I'm really excited. And I guess an important question I meant to ask you before is also, sort of, the risks and downsides of this. I mean, you were saying some of the hallucinations are seen as, you know, sort of, a negative side effect, but are there any other major, sort of, risks and side effects someone might need to take into account considering this form of therapy?

Dina Burkitbayeva: Sure. I mean, again, people should definitely speak with their own doctors to get the full, kind of, download on this, but, you know, the full download is not even available because we're still studying, right? They're still being studied. But I think just generally things that people should be aware of - there's current indications, for sure, right? So someone who is psychotic, could be psychotic, with schizophrenia, should not be taking these medications based on, sort of, the clinical evidence that exists today. 

You know, on the physical side, you know, something like, psilocybin does have cardiotoxicity risks. So it would, definitely to be mindful around that. And just generally I think if you're, sort of, experiencing hallucinations you should be in a very safe space where you couldn't hurt yourself, physically, where you have someone who can help you, you know, get to the bathroom, or get a glass of water, and just support you right? Because something that could be coming up could be quite intense. That's what's really in to terms of having the right sort of set and setting. A safe space with people that you trust and that way you feel, sort of, comfortable and held to be able to really go into the experience. 

Claudia von Boeselager: Very helpful. Thank you. 

For someone interested in investing in this space, how can one best get started? 
Dina Burkitbayeva: So I guess there's three primary ways, right? You could go as an angel investor and, you know, meet the companies and invest directly. You could go through a, kind of, more of a syndicates, similar to what we have with PsyMed Ventures and, you know, sort of, participate on a deal by deal basis.

You would be, if you were to join PsyMed, every time there's an opportunity you would get an email saying we're investing in this company and you would have a week or two to, sort of, make an investment. 

And the third ways to invest into a fund. There's various funds in this space and PsyMed is one of them. And, you know, it's a, sort of, more traditional venture where you give a check and you, sort of, forget about what's happening. Yeah.

Claudia von Boeselager: Okay. Perfect. Thank you for explaining. A couple more rapid fire questions before we close. What has been your most exciting purchase in the last six months? I love specifics, brand, model, where people can find it.

Dina Burkitbayeva: Hmm. I, this going to sound silly, but I really love these new practical but cute shoes that I bought from Rothy's. So these are the, it's a brand that uses recycled plastic from the oceans to make shoes. 

Claudia von Boeselager: Wow.

Dina Burkitbayeva: And the shoes are washable. That's the most beautiful thing. And so you've these nice shoes and, you know, and then I can go on the beach or in the mud, I have a dog, you know, whatever happens with the dogs, put them in their wash and they come out almost as good as new, you know?

Claudia von Boeselager: Are they more like sneakers or are they like casual shoes? 

Dina Burkitbayeva: All sorts of, at this point, they've all sorts of models. So you have moccasins, you have sneakers, you have flip-flops, they make bags now, but it's a kind of a popular brand in San Francisco now. 

Claudia von Boeselager: Okay. Very cool. 

Dina, if you could get one message out to the world and a billion people could hear this message, what would it be? It could be a few words, a paragraph.

Dina Burkitbayeva: Yeah. I would say "trust". You know, trust in the fact that life is unfolding in the right way. That life is happening for you, that, you know, whatever challenges you might be going through, they're there to ultimately help, and for your own benefit. As hard as it may be at times, I would say that that's something that I would love for many people to hear. Thank you, great question.

Claudia von Boeselager: You're welcome. What has been one of the best and most worthwhile investments you've ever made? And again, it could be in terms of time or money or energy. 

Dina Burkitbayeva: I took three months off once and, sort of, what I believed to be at the height of my career, and, you know, when, you know, I really couldn't step away and do anything, you know, and things would fall apart without me. But I took that time for myself and I would honestly say it's probably the best decision I've ever made. And, you know, that allowed for really, really, kind of, beautiful things to happen, to follow. 

Claudia von Boeselager: Oh, beautiful. I love that. 

Dina, for my listeners interested in understanding mental health and psychedelics and longevity better, you mentioned a few books and is there any further online resources or any other books that we haven't mentioned yet that you recommend they start with? 

Dina Burkitbayeva: No, I think, honestly, don't get overwhelmed, because you could get overwhelmed because there's a lot of information. I think if you're just getting started, pick up the book by Michael Pollan. It's fascinating because you just get to read about, sort of, different parts of psychedelics, the science, the history, the clinical research that's happening now, and that will lead you to where you, sort of, would want to go. And then for, kind of, a lower commitment, watch a documentary called A Trip of Compassion, I believe, available on Vimeo. And I think it will answer a lot of the questions. 

Claudia von Boeselager: Perfect. Where can people learn more about what you're up to, on social media, websites?

Dina Burkitbayeva: Sure. I'm not on Twitter. I would say that the best way to follow us would be on LinkedIn. So the fund is called PsyMed Ventures. 

Claudia von Boeselager: Can you spell that? 

Dina Burkitbayeva: Sure. P S Y M E D, as in psychedelic medicine. Ventures. Our website is psymed.ventures. There's a way to, sort of, follow us on various platforms, and see what we're up to. 

Claudia von Boeselager: Perfect. Do you have a final ask or recommendation, any parting thoughts or message for my audience?

Dina Burkitbayeva: I would just say, you know, be open-minded, you know, when it comes to psychedelics or whatever else. If this peaked your interest, you know, maybe watch a Ted talk by Rick Doblin. He's a great resource so, you know, read the book or watch the documentary. You know, psychedelics might not be the right thing for you, but I think something interesting could come out of that research.

Claudia von Boeselager: Thank you so much, Dina. It's been such a pleasure to have you on today, and thank you so much for walking us through this incredibly interesting space. Really appreciate it. 
    
Dina Burkitbayeva: Thank you so much, Claudia, for having me, it was fun!